Throw-in spot

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Here's one: A1, having used his dribble and in backcourt in the paint, passes the ball towards midcourt. A2 has turned and doesn't see the ball coming. A1 chases the ball down near the division line and retrieves it. A1 has committed an illegal dribble. Is violation at midcourt where he retrieved the ball or back in the paint where he started his illegal dribble?

Apples and oranges.

Until A1 touches it again (a positive act), we don't deem it a dribble. It is the touching that makes it a violation.

In the shot clock situation, the underlying concept is a team can't maintain team control or possession more than the allotted shot clock period (noteing that various unrelated things pause or reset the count such as defensive violations, fouls, or timeouts). They must release a "try" before the time expires and the horn sounds. However, for the purposes of the shot clock rule (not fouls), the "try" is not considered a "try" unless it hits the rim. This is to prevent a team from throwing it "near" the basket to a teammate in an attempt to circumvent the rule.

This is an attempt discussing the concept of the rule, not the letter of the rule.

Now note the wording of the rule...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

I think the word "subsequently" may suggest that the violation has already occurred at the time of the horn but is delayed to see if the ball hits the rim or to in order to determine if the try is "good enough" to reset the clock. If not, the team didn't satisfy the requirement to release a legitimate "try" before the horn.

[NCHSAA]

I think "subsequently" means does not continue or does not later hit the rim, in referring to the shot. I can see where your coming from, but I don't believe the violation occurs when the horn sounds even though officials do wait to see if the ball hits the rim.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apples and oranges.

Until A1 touches it again (a positive act), we don't deem it a dribble. It is the touching that makes it a violation.

...

So, back a year or two ago we had a discussion about A1 jumping to shoot a shot and then dropping the ball to the ground instead. Most said it was not a travelling violation until A1 touched the ball again. A few said it was an immediate violation when he dropped the ball. I'm assuming you were on the side of it not being a violation until A1 retouched the ball?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, back a year or two ago we had a discussion about A1 jumping to shoot a shot and then dropping the ball to the ground instead. Most said it was not a travelling violation until A1 touched the ball again. A few said it was an immediate violation when he dropped the ball. I'm assuming you were on the side of it not being a violation until A1 retouched the ball?

I am today.

[tref]

Never knew this topic would generate such a debate. Seems like none of us really know, for sure. It may be best to ask the one who gives us games how they want it handled...



So what was the result of the travel discussion??

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...


So what was the result of the travel discussion??

We took a poll.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by tref

Never knew this topic would generate such a debate. Seems like none of us really know, for sure.

I only officiate high school games, and we don't use a shot clock for public school games here in the Land of Steady Habits, so I have absolutely no input on this shot clock, throwin spot, topic.

I do find it very hard to believe that with all the college officials on this Forum, many being highly respected, esteemed, members, no one can come up with a single correct interpretation to what I would think would be not only a simple question, but a question that would have a very simple answer. I mean, collectively, you college guys must have called thousands of shot clock violations over the years, yet most of you have given little thought as to where the ball is supposed to be put back into play, or, rather, maybe the NCAA has given little thought as to where the ball is supposed to be put back into play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

no one can come up with a single correct interpretation to what I would think would be not only a simple question, but a question that would have a very simple answer

It may be that it is not really that big of a deal. For all practical purposes, the spot of the shot, even if is nearer the sideline, wouldn't make that much of a difference....it is still in the backcourt and a long way from the other basket.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by camron rust

it may be that it is not really that big of a deal. For all practical purposes, the spot of the shot, even if is nearer the sideline, wouldn't make that much of a difference....it is still in the backcourt and a long way from the other basket.

+1

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It may be that it is not really that big of a deal. For all practical purposes, the spot of the shot, even if is nearer the sideline, wouldn't make that much of a difference....it is still in the backcourt and a long way from the other basket.

What if the ball is thrown from the far FT line just prior to the shot clock expiring and turns out to be an airball (with the horn sounding while the ball is in flight)? Now you have to choose between the two endlines. It could make a difference late in a quarter or half.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What if the ball is thrown from the far FT line just prior to the shot clock expiring and turns out to be an airball (with the horn sounding while the ball is in flight)? Now you have to choose between the two endlines. It could make a difference late in a quarter or half.

You are wise beyond your years, just a week late.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Scrapper's interp may be technically correct but I can say I've never had a game where the throw-in was brought back out to a designated spot nearest the origin of the shot.

I need to pay attention to some of occurrences on TV games and see what they are doing. Really had never put much thought into it before this discussion. Guess it would make a big difference if it occurred in the waning seconds of a close game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What if the ball is thrown from the far FT line just prior to the shot clock expiring and turns out to be an airball (with the horn sounding while the ball is in flight)? Now you have to choose between the two endlines. It could make a difference late in a quarter or half.

That only happens with time expiring in the half. The chances of it *also* happening with the shot clock running out such that the shot clock expires and the try is obviously missed before the game clock expires are small. I don't recall ever hearing of such a case.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it's not really going to affect the game.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That only happens with time expiring in the half. The chances of it *also* happening with the shot clock running out such that the shot clock expires and the try is obviously missed before the game clock expires are small. I don't recall ever hearing of such a case.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it's not really going to affect the game.

Team A up 59-58 with 9 seconds remaining in the game, 5 on the shot clock. The ball is tipped deep into the backcourt where A1 retrieves & throws an airball. Coach B is lobbying for a throw-in where the shot left from, coach A goes nuts as he thinks it should be a b/c endline throw-in.
4 seconds left in a good game & the officials seem confused & unsure. EOG situation, I could see an incorrect throw-in spot costing someone a few games. Not a good look...



An incorrect throw-in spot for shot clock violations could be an issue in the last 2 minutes of a highly competitive ballgame as well.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What if the ball is thrown from the far FT line just prior to the shot clock expiring and turns out to be an airball (with the horn sounding while the ball is in flight)? Now you have to choose between the two endlines. It could make a difference late in a quarter or half.

I wasn't talking about every situation...just that in MOST situations it will not make much of a difference. I'm aware that there are a few scenarios that could be constructed that it would make a real difference but they're not very probable.

[APG]

Originally Posted by tref

Team A up 59-58 with 9 seconds remaining in the game, 5 on the shot clock. The ball is tipped deep into the backcourt where A1 retrieves & throws an airball. Coach B is lobbying for a throw-in where the shot left from, coach A goes nuts as he thinks it should be a b/c endline throw-in.
4 seconds left in a good game & the officials seem confused & unsure. EOG situation, I could see an incorrect throw-in spot costing someone a few games. Not a good look...



An incorrect throw-in spot for shot clock violations could be an issue in the last 2 minutes of a highly competitive ballgame as well.

The chances of a college coach asking for that are infinitesimal...because in every game he's coached, the ball has been inbounded where the ball was physically located when the whistle blew...not where the shooter was located.