How far do you push?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?

Anyone who receives an assignment at that level has earned it from someone who put him there. It's certainly not my place to attempt to call the game for him. If you don't have enough respect for a partner on a State game then you have big problems.
In my area state games are mixed crews and so frequently are people with whom I have never worked. I would most definitely NOT go to a partner about a call. If the partner wants some help and comes to me to ask, then I'll provide the info.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Or this play....

Championship game, 15 seconds left, score within one basket ether way. A2 shoots and misses. A1, inches from the endline right in front of you lead, gets the rebound and finds himself surrounded by B4 and B5....no chance to get a shot up...10 seconds left. A2 tries to pass the ball back out to A3 but the ball sails way over A3's head into the backcourt where A3 retrieves the ball. The only players the ball ever had a chance of touching were A1, B4 and B5....all deep in you primary.

What would you do if A1 threw the ball such that it (A) was tipped by B4 or B5 and your partner(s) call a backcourt violation or (B) was clearly not tipped by either B4 or B5 and your partner(s)did not call a backcourt violation?

Your decision to act or not act has a good chance to change who wins the game.

An intelligent official as the Trail would look back to the Lead for a visual indication of tip by the defense or not before blowing the whistle. As T that is what I would do. As Lead I would give a hand signal to my partner.
If my partner wants to make a call on a play which is not in his primary without any help, then he gets to explain it afterwards.

[Nevadaref]

For those of you who are going to partners with information and attempting to get calls changed or simply changing them yourselves do you also do this when your partner calls a foul which you believe is incorrect?

For example, you have a block/charge play in the lane as Lead which you think is a block, but the Trail comes running in and signals a charge before you can do anything.

Let's make it during a State championship game with five seconds left and the score is tied.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For those of you who are going to partners with information and attempting to get calls changed or simply changing them yourselves do you also do this when your partner calls a foul which you believe is incorrect?

For example, you have a block/charge play in the lane as Lead which you think is a block, but the Trail comes running in and signals a charge before you can do anything.

Let's make it during a State championship game with five seconds left and the score is tied.

That is why this game is so hard to officiate. In one situation something can be done (IMO), while in your situation that is pretty much a wrap for it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

That is why this game is so hard to officiate. In one situation something can be done (IMO), while in your situation that is pretty much a wrap for it.

Right, we can't officiate for other people.

IMO people seem too eager to change the decisions of their partners.
What happened to trusting your partner? What about killing his credibility or confidence?

Each of us has different training and different judgment. We aren't always going to agree. That is why we switch positions on fouls during the game.

I've learned to live with what my partners call. If they ask, I'll share my thoughts. Otherwise, I'm going to just let it go.

[tomegun]

OK, I may be one of those partners in that mixed crew. If you came to me and told me, "Tom, blue (the defense) tipped that ball" I would immediately put my whistle in my mouth, tweet and give the offense back the ball. Putting the ball back into play so coaches coach, players play and fans...do whatever they do.

You are also correct, I would make the call and look at you immediately. That look would say, "come help me if I'm wrong on this." I think an error of omission here is wrong and we cannot easily stop play to call the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, I may be one of those partners in that mixed crew. If you came to me and told me, "Tom, blue (the defense) tipped that ball" I would immediately put my whistle in my mouth, tweet and give the offense back the ball. Putting the ball back into play so coaches coach, players play and fans...do whatever they do.

You are also correct, I would make the call and look at you immediately. That look would say, "come help me if I'm wrong on this." I think an error of omission here is wrong and we cannot easily stop play to call the violation.

Knowing you, I'm sure that you would cover the type of plays on which you desire such help in the pregame. Yet I've been on several crews where it isn't brought up and I can tell that it isn't desired.

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Knowing you, I'm sure that you would cover the type of plays on which you desire such help in the pregame. Yet I've been on several crews where it isn't brought up and I can tell that it isn't desired.

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

OK, so tell me what you would be looking for me to do if I was the L. I would be looking right at you waiting for you to blow the whistle and I don't have a clue as to what I could do to help you until you blow the whistle.

Are you looking for me to give you come kind of tip signal? Shake my head?

[APG]

I just don't get your line of thinking Nevada...IMO, you hold pertinent information back that may lead to a changed call, then not only do you make me look, bad, but you make the whole crew look bad for not correcting something obvious. You ask if people would use this on fouls...no because that's the cut off point because those kind of plays involve a lot of judgement.

Out of bounds call...we can give a concrete fact that a player hit the ball that he may not have seen...backcourt calls a missed deflection or just a plain misapplication of a rule. This is something that is easily brought up in a pre-game and if, as you say, someone doesn't bring up the scenario, then I'd bring it up myself.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, so tell me what you would be looking for me to do if I was the L. I would be looking right at you waiting for you to blow the whistle and I don't have a clue as to what I could do to help you until you blow the whistle.

Are you looking for me to give you come kind of tip signal? Shake my head?

I'd look back and give you this
and holler, "Tom, was there a tip?"

I would assume that you would either shake your head "no" or give me some kind of tip signal with your hands. I'd even be okay with you blowing the whistle at that point if there wasn't a defensive tip from in front of you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

99% certain it in the definitions section under "Ball Location" (or maybe "Location, Ball")

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

I agree that on this (BC violation) play, L can give a "tip" signal, if there was one -- this is when it should be used. If there's no signal, then blow the whistle. If L then comes out and says it was tipped, change the call (unless T has a later touch by B, or some other reason to keep the call).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

99% certain it in the definitions section under "Ball Location" (or maybe "Location, Ball").

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

4-4-6 ... During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

Thanks guys.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Anyone who receives an assignment at that level has earned it from someone who put him there. It's certainly not my place to attempt to call the game for him. If you don't have enough respect for a partner on a State game then you have big problems.
In my area state games are mixed crews and so frequently are people with whom I have never worked. I would most definitely NOT go to a partner about a call. If the partner wants some help and comes to me to ask, then I'll provide the info..

This has nothing to do with lack of respect for a partner! Quite frankly, I respect the GAME first & foremost. So if his wittle feelings get hurt because he saw something incorrect & I brought info to him then that is his problem. Sh!t, he should be buying me a beer after the game... I would.

We have mixed crews here too, which really means an official that sees a steady diet of 1A ball can now see 3A-5A squads all of a sudden. ~ Hmmmmm ~
9 out of 10 times its unrealistic to expect said official to be able to adjust to the speed & skill level on the biggest stage... but thats how they do it

This thread shows how differently things are done across the country.
"Let him live & die with it vs. Get the play it right"

I'm sure if we took it to the polls the latter would win!

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'd look back and give you this

Say it aint so Nevada! You dont really use the "Idunno" do you?

[Raymond]

I pregame "help".

I let my partners know that at least once a game I usually ask for help on a OOB play from the lead and that I do so verbally.

I let them know I'm not coming in to provide information on a bang-bang OOB play that occurs in their primary even if they get it wrong but I will most definitely be bringing information if the tip occurred in my PCA before going out on their line.