How far do you push?

[tref]

State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?

[APG]

Personally, I'm going to try and give my partner information to try and change the call. If he doesn't want to change his call then I've done everything I can. I don't particular like the mindset that we should stick with a rules misapplication and keep quiet even if he have additional info we can give that can correct this.

[Adam]

New sitch:

Varsity game.
Live action, ball goes into the lane. A1 attempts a pass to A2, but it's tipped by B1 (also in the lane) into the backcourt where A3 retrieves it and is the first to touch.

T calls BC because he didn't see the tip.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:

Varsity game.
Live action, ball goes into the lane. A1 attempts a pass to A2, but it's tipped by B1 (also in the lane) into the backcourt where A3 retrieves it and is the first to touch.

T calls BC because he didn't see the tip.

Snaqs (and camron Rust), in all fairness to Nevada, you are changing the situation drastically here. He said he would not insert himself into a rules misapplication situation. This is not a misapplication of the rule - it's simply a partner who didn't see the ball tipped by the defender. Those are two very different things.

If it were me - I would go quickly and calmly to my partner with information, on both of your situations. I would not try to argue with him/her, simply ask if they saw the tip or if there should be a backcourt violation on a throw-in. And then away we go with whatever he/she decides to do with the info.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Snaqs (and camron Rust), in all fairness to Nevada, you are changing the situation drastically here. He said he would not insert himself into a rules misapplication situation. This is not a misapplication of the rule - it's simply a partner who didn't see the ball tipped by the defender. Those are two very different things.

No, he said this...

Originally Posted by NevadaRef

Unless my partner asks, I don't do or say anything about his calls in his area. If he calls in my area and I had a different opinion of the play, I'll ask him what he saw AFTERWARDS IN THE LOCKERROOM either at halftime or following the game. Most of the time, I'll just say thank you after hearing from him.
It is very difficult to question the judgment of a partner. I would recommend refraining from doing so. People get super sensitive, so leave that to the assignors or observers.

I will discuss a rule application with a partner. Again only if he asks about a play in his area. If it was in mine, now we have a good opportunity to start the conversation with what did you see there.

I never go to a partner on the court during the game about a call. He made it. He can answer for it. If he wants help, he can ask.

He clearly said he would not go to his partner at all unless the partner asked for help...whether it was a rules situation or otherwise.

Plus, in my case, you really don't know if it is a rules misapplication or incorrect judgement. It is not the same as the ball being OOB and getting the direction wrong. Being OOB is illegal every time...but going into the backcourt is illegal only sometimes.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If it were me - I would go quickly and calmly to my partner with information, on both of your situations. I would not try to argue with him/her, simply ask if they saw the tip or if there should be a backcourt violation on a throw-in. And then away we go with whatever he/she decides to do with the info.

And that is how it should be done.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No, he said this...



He clearly said he would not go to his partner at all unless the partner asked for help...whether it was a rules situation or otherwise.

Plus, in my case, you really don't know if it is a rules misapplication or incorrect judgement. It is not the same as the ball being OOB and getting the direction wrong. Being OOB is illegal every time...but going into the backcourt is illegal only sometimes.

Hmmm...upon reading his comments after this post by you, I have to agree that you read his earlier posts better than I did.

I honestly have no idea where he is coming from on this...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?

edit....was typing up my play when someone came into my office....i hit submit a couple hours later only to see that Snaq posed essentially the same question.

Or this play....

Championship game, 15 seconds left, score within one basket ether way. A2 shoots and misses. A1, inches from the endline right in front of you lead, gets the rebound and finds himself surrounded by B4 and B5....no chance to get a shot up...10 seconds left. A2 tries to pass the ball back out to A3 but the ball sails way over A3's head into the backcourt where A3 retrieves the ball. The only players the ball ever had a chance of touching were A1, B4 and B5....all deep in you primary.

What would you do if A1 threw the ball such that it (A) was tipped by B4 or B5 and your partner(s) call a backcourt violation or (B) was clearly not tipped by either B4 or B5 and your partner(s)did not call a backcourt violation?

Your decision to act or not act has a good chance to change who wins the game.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Yesterday, I am officiating a boys' JrHS game at a local colleges boys' JrHS and HS team camp. I am the T as A1 is dribbling the ball in A's BC. A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC. My partner, from his position on A's FC endline, sounds his whistle for a BC violation by A1, . I took the call away from my partner and gave the ball to A for a throw-in nearest the spot of the "BC" violation. Team B's HC didn't complain and even told me that he know it wasn't a BC violation.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yesterday, I am officiating a boys' JrHS game at a local colleges boys' JrHS and HS team camp. I am the T as A1 is dribbling the ball in A's BC. A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC. My partner, from his position on A's FC endline, sounds his whistle for a BC violation by A1, . I took the call away from my partner and gave the ball to A for a throw-in nearest the spot of the "BC" violation. Team B's HC didn't complain and even told me that he know it wasn't a BC violation.

MTD, Sr.

I hope you made the preacher buy you dinner after that one. Or was it Jr?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hope you made the preacher buy you dinner after that one. Or was it Jr?

Neither of them was my partner in this game. If it was Junior, I would have made him walk home. LOL

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC.

Just want to double check something. The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt? No violation. Right?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just want to double check something. The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt? No violation. Right?

Billy, read what you quoted from Mark. Which part is confusing? If A1 were holding the ball and moved his pivot foot into the FC woudn't that be a travel?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Billy, read what you quoted from Mark. Which part is confusing? If A1 were holding the ball and moved his pivot foot into the FC woudn't that be a travel?

BadNewsRef:

Go easy on Billy, the Red Sox can't seem to get away for those pesky New York Yankees and that is causing him to have trouble concentrating on basketball.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt. No violation.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Which part is confusing?

Nothing is confusing. I'm just trying to clarify the situation, especially for Forum rookies.

4.4.1 SITUATION: As Team A is advancing the ball from its backcourt toward
its frontcourt, A1 passes the ball to A2. A2 catches the ball while both feet are on
the floor – with one foot on either side of the division line. In this situation, either
foot may be the pivot foot. (a) A2 lifts the foot which is in the backcourt and then
puts it back on the floor in the backcourt; or (b) A2 lifts the foot which is in the
frontcourt, pivots and puts it on the floor in the backcourt. RULING: In (a), it is a
backcourt violation. When A2, while holding the ball, lifts the foot which was in
the backcourt, the ball is now in the frontcourt. When A2’s foot then touches in
the backcourt, it is a violation. In (b), when A2 lifts the foot which is in the frontcourt
and places it down in the backcourt, the location of the ball has not
changed. The ball is still in the backcourt and no violation has occurred. (4-35-2)

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

4-4-6 ... During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.