Picking battles

[twocentsworth]

imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

" . . . your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them,"

. . . said the opposing coach whose player missed the free throw.

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BTW, I'm still trying to settle the question: if the disconcertion is committed by bench personnel such that it merits a call, must the penalty be a T for unsporting conduct, or would the penalty be a substitute free throw as per 9-1-3c whereby "No opponent" includes bench personnel as well as players on the floor?

I've squeezed by rulebook and casebook like a sponge, and I can't find anything that would preclude calling a violation on the bench personnel in this instance. The only thing opposing that is the apparent sentiment that a violation cannot ever be called on a non-player(s) which I also cannot find.

Any further definitive conclusions to share beyond what was given in the previously hijacked thread?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

Originally Posted by Freddy

. . . said the opposing coach whose player missed the free throw.

And that opposing coach's opinion means exactly what? And has that player never missed a FT in a silent gym?

Originally Posted by Freddy

________________________________________________

BTW, I'm still trying to settle the question: if the disconcertion is committed by bench personnel such that it merits a call, must the penalty be a T for unsporting conduct, or would the penalty be a substitute free throw as per 9-1-3c whereby "No opponent" includes bench personnel as well as players on the floor?

I've squeezed by rulebook and casebook like a sponge, and I can't find anything that would preclude calling a violation on the bench personnel in this instance. The only thing opposing that is the apparent sentiment that a violation cannot ever be called on a non-player(s) which I also cannot find.

Any further definitive conclusions to share beyond what was given in the previously hijacked thread?

Disconcertion, whether by a player or by any member of the team, is a violation. I suppose that some specific actions could be deemed unsportsmanlike and penalized accordingly, possibly on top of also calling disconcertion in extreme cases but basic disconcertion by bench personnel is not a T.

That said, the threshold for what I'd consider disconcertion is much higher for bench personnel than for players along the lane or near the FT shooter. Their ability to effectively distract the shooter from 25-75' away is pretty limited.

[reffish]

twocents...I agree, at the end of the game, I spoke with my partner about battles to pick.

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

tref: The other coach did not influence me on my judgement. I agree to not in the future to address the coach, just delay violation and explain why and move on. Of course, T if it persists.

Cameron: Where is the line drawn? How much talk before you call the delay? Can the players in the lane talk? The players line up and there is no chatter, then the ball is bounced and then there is chatter on whose got who, box out here, pinch there and this is the first of a two shot foul? What is the intent? To distract the shooter! Just my opinion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

twocents...I agree, at the end of the game, I spoke with my partner about battles to pick.

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

tref: The other coach did not influence me on my judgement. I agree to not in the future to address the coach, just delay violation and explain why and move on. Of course, T if it persists.

Cameron: Where is the line drawn? How much talk before you call the delay? Can the players in the lane talk? The players line up and there is no chatter, then the ball is bounced and then there is chatter on whose got who, box out here, pinch there and this is the first of a two shot foul? What is the intent? To distract the shooter! Just my opinion.

Again, to me, the coach's comments would have to be perfectly timed, loud, and probably staccato, on order for me to even consider it.

With players on the lane, we all know what it looks like.

Bottom line, don't penalize the coach just because the gym is quiet.

That said, if you thought it was disconcertion, you needed to get it (as you did). Talk to the guys who work higher level ball in your area, get their opinions, and listen to them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again, to me, the coach's comments would have to be perfectly timed, loud, and probably staccato, on order for me to even consider it.

With players on the lane, we all know what it looks like.

Bottom line, don't penalize the coach just because the gym is quiet.

That said, if you thought it was disconcertion, you needed to get it (as you did). Talk to the guys who work higher level ball in your area, get their opinions, and listen to them.

+1

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by reffish

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

Hold the ball until he's finished. Then, ask the players while looking at him, "Everyone got that? Good, then there's no need to disconcert."

He'll get the point.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.

I've seen it. Every time the FT shooter brings the ball to it's apogee, the coach yells "BOX OUT!" thrid time he did it, I just looked at him and gave a delayed dead ball. He knew what he was doing and I knew what he was doing.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

I don't think it's picking a battle. I think it's calling the game by the rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Delayed dead ball.

Using NCAA signals BktBallRef, because a "delayed dead ball" signal doesn't exist in either the NFHS, nor the IAABO, manual? I can only find a "Delay Lane Violation" signal in both "high school" manuals. Or, maybe you're not using a manual?

[reffish]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I've seen it. Every time the FT shooter brings the ball to it's apogee, the coach yells "BOX OUT!" thrid time he did it, I just looked at him and gave a delayed dead ball. He knew what he was doing and I knew what he was doing.



I don't think it's picking a battle. I think it's calling the game by the rules.

Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I'm on an island with this, hence picking the battle. Oh well, I like feedback from Snaqwells to confide in higher ups and see what they say. For now, during summer ball, delay violation and I will lose the discourse with coach on why; just do it!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by reffish

Sometimes I feel like I'm on an island with this, hence picking the battle.