The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 20, 2011, 08:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iron City, TN
Posts: 181
Send a message via Skype™ to reffish
Picking battles

Did some high school summer tournaments this weekend and picked a battle with a coach. He insisted to give "instructions" to his players during free throws. Of course, it was during the opponents free throws. I asked him to refrain from speaking during the free throw and he became flabbergasted At half time he wanted an explanation and I told him that opponents cannot disconcert the free thrower during his throw. He retorted that the packed gym will be making noise. I reminded him that opponents, not fans, cannot disconcert the free thrower. He disagreed. Sure enough, second half and he is giving "instructions" to his players, like box out, pinch that side, whose got the shooter, crap like that. Delay violation, miss first of two shot foul, and he is incredulous. Once more shot and he is again talking, delay, missed shot. To his credit he did stop after that one and just mumbled something about 35 years coaching he's never heard of such a thing. To cap it off, his guard is shooting and he said to one of his players to talk to the team because he couldn't talk during the free throws. I had to laugh at that one.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 20, 2011, 09:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,281
I am going to be a p{}~k but based on the plays as described, I would not go looking for this... Sounds like coach was instructing/coaching...unless he is screaming the instructions, I d leave it alone....

I have done ball a long time and at several levels and cannot think of a time when a coach's behavior would rise to disconcerting...
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 20, 2011, 10:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Good job, reffish. You properly enforced the rule.

Doesn't matter if he hasn't seen it done in 35 years of coaching.

There are several officials who would never call this either, but that doesn't make them right. It just means that they choose not to bother with it.

If you believe that what the coach is doing is distracting to the opposing FT shooter, then you are correct to call a violation for disconcertion. If it is persistent or unsporting, then you are correct to also charge a technical foul to the offending coach.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 08:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by reffish View Post
Sure enough, second half and he is giving "instructions" to his players, like box out, pinch that side, whose got the shooter, crap like that. Delay violation, miss first of two shot foul, and he is incredulous. Once more shot and he is again talking, delay, missed shot. To his credit he did stop after that one and just mumbled something about 35 years coaching he's never heard of such a thing. To cap it off, his guard is shooting and he said to one of his players to talk to the team because he couldn't talk during the free throws. I had to laugh at that one.
Ok in the 1st half its your judgment as to whether this coach is trying to disconcert or if he is just coaching/instructing his team. I've seen this before when the teams are shooting in front of the defensive bench. I'll give you that.

But the 2nd half?!?!?!
He's disconcerting from the backcourt 28' line to the frontcourt FT line extended? IDK
Sounds like the other team talked you into something or you just didnt have enough to do already.

The terms you provided that the coach used are things I hear coaches & players say all the time in a FT situation. I'd never tell a coach he cant talk... simply show the delayed FT violation mechanic. But be prepared to follow up with a T
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:02am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:07am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.
Especially in the 2nd half.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 11:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 574
imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 01:05pm
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Then Again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
" . . . your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them,"
. . . said the opposing coach whose player missed the free throw.

________________________________________________

BTW, I'm still trying to settle the question: if the disconcertion is committed by bench personnel such that it merits a call, must the penalty be a T for unsporting conduct, or would the penalty be a substitute free throw as per 9-1-3c whereby "No opponent" includes bench personnel as well as players on the floor?

I've squeezed by rulebook and casebook like a sponge, and I can't find anything that would preclude calling a violation on the bench personnel in this instance. The only thing opposing that is the apparent sentiment that a violation cannot ever be called on a non-player(s) which I also cannot find.

Any further definitive conclusions to share beyond what was given in the previously hijacked thread?
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call

Last edited by Freddy; Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 01:16pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 01:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Good job, reffish. You properly enforced the rule.

Doesn't matter if he hasn't seen it done in 35 years of coaching.

There are several officials who would never call this either, but that doesn't make them right. It just means that they choose not to bother with it.

If you believe that what the coach is doing is distracting to the opposing FT shooter, then you are correct to call a violation for disconcertion. If it is persistent or unsporting, then you are correct to also charge a technical foul to the offending coach.
As Stan Lee would say, "Nuff said".
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 03:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
. . . said the opposing coach whose player missed the free throw.
And that opposing coach's opinion means exactly what? And has that player never missed a FT in a silent gym?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
________________________________________________

BTW, I'm still trying to settle the question: if the disconcertion is committed by bench personnel such that it merits a call, must the penalty be a T for unsporting conduct, or would the penalty be a substitute free throw as per 9-1-3c whereby "No opponent" includes bench personnel as well as players on the floor?

I've squeezed by rulebook and casebook like a sponge, and I can't find anything that would preclude calling a violation on the bench personnel in this instance. The only thing opposing that is the apparent sentiment that a violation cannot ever be called on a non-player(s) which I also cannot find.

Any further definitive conclusions to share beyond what was given in the previously hijacked thread?
Disconcertion, whether by a player or by any member of the team, is a violation. I suppose that some specific actions could be deemed unsportsmanlike and penalized accordingly, possibly on top of also calling disconcertion in extreme cases but basic disconcertion by bench personnel is not a T.

That said, the threshold for what I'd consider disconcertion is much higher for bench personnel than for players along the lane or near the FT shooter. Their ability to effectively distract the shooter from 25-75' away is pretty limited.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association

Last edited by Camron Rust; Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:12pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 03:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iron City, TN
Posts: 181
Send a message via Skype™ to reffish
twocents...I agree, at the end of the game, I spoke with my partner about battles to pick.

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

tref: The other coach did not influence me on my judgement. I agree to not in the future to address the coach, just delay violation and explain why and move on. Of course, T if it persists.

Cameron: Where is the line drawn? How much talk before you call the delay? Can the players in the lane talk? The players line up and there is no chatter, then the ball is bounced and then there is chatter on whose got who, box out here, pinch there and this is the first of a two shot foul? What is the intent? To distract the shooter! Just my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 03:53pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by reffish View Post
twocents...I agree, at the end of the game, I spoke with my partner about battles to pick.

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

tref: The other coach did not influence me on my judgement. I agree to not in the future to address the coach, just delay violation and explain why and move on. Of course, T if it persists.

Cameron: Where is the line drawn? How much talk before you call the delay? Can the players in the lane talk? The players line up and there is no chatter, then the ball is bounced and then there is chatter on whose got who, box out here, pinch there and this is the first of a two shot foul? What is the intent? To distract the shooter! Just my opinion.
Again, to me, the coach's comments would have to be perfectly timed, loud, and probably staccato, on order for me to even consider it.

With players on the lane, we all know what it looks like.

Bottom line, don't penalize the coach just because the gym is quiet.

That said, if you thought it was disconcertion, you needed to get it (as you did). Talk to the guys who work higher level ball in your area, get their opinions, and listen to them.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 03:55pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Again, to me, the coach's comments would have to be perfectly timed, loud, and probably staccato, on order for me to even consider it.

With players on the lane, we all know what it looks like.

Bottom line, don't penalize the coach just because the gym is quiet.

That said, if you thought it was disconcertion, you needed to get it (as you did). Talk to the guys who work higher level ball in your area, get their opinions, and listen to them.
+1

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 04:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.
I've seen it. Every time the FT shooter brings the ball to it's apogee, the coach yells "BOX OUT!" thrid time he did it, I just looked at him and gave a delayed dead ball. He knew what he was doing and I knew what he was doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.
I don't think it's picking a battle. I think it's calling the game by the rules.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 05:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by reffish View Post
Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.
Hold the ball until he's finished. Then, ask the players while looking at him, "Everyone got that? Good, then there's no need to disconcert."

He'll get the point.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Picking nits Adam Basketball 12 Mon Jan 04, 2010 06:40pm
Nit-picking question Mike51 Football 15 Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:29am
Picking On NFHS whiskers_ump Softball 10 Sun Jan 22, 2006 09:58am
nit picking calls-violations oc Basketball 33 Fri Apr 16, 2004 03:03pm
Picking up the dribble.... MREUROREF Basketball 12 Sat Jun 10, 2000 05:27pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1