nit picking calls-violations

[oc]

I am still replaying a situation that happened months ago in my head-please give some advice on how you would call it.

MS boys 7th grade game. I am the T for a free throw. After the shooter has the ball I see a kid form the opposing team standing on the 3 point line. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier as I usually watch for this and 'coach' the kids to avoid these minor violations, before the ball is passed to the shooter. I put up my hand and signal a delayed violation and call it after shooter misses the shot. Now I knew at the time this is a nit-picking call and I took some heat for it from Coach B.


Would you call it? does it depend on the level-Middle school, jv, Var?
-If no, what do you do if Coach A also saw it and asks. It was minor but obvious. "Sorry coach but I didn't think it was that important so I ignored it."

-Wouldn't the HS coach for team B rather the ref calls it and the kids learn and not make the same mistake later? Interested in opinions from refs as well as coaches who are on this board.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by oc
I am still replaying a situation that happened months ago in my head-please give some advice on how you would call it.

MS boys 7th grade game. I am the T for a free throw. After the shooter has the ball I see a kid form the opposing team standing on the 3 point line. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier as I usually watch for this and 'coach' the kids to avoid these minor violations, before the ball is passed to the shooter. I put up my hand and signal a delayed violation and call it after shooter misses the shot. Now I knew at the time this is a nit-picking call and I took some heat for it from Coach B.


Would you call it? does it depend on the level-Middle school, jv, Var?
-If no, what do you do if Coach A also saw it and asks. It was minor but obvious. "Sorry coach but I didn't think it was that important so I ignored it."

-Wouldn't the HS coach for team B rather the ref calls it and the kids learn and not make the same mistake later? Interested in opinions from refs as well as coaches who are on this board.

If you saw it before the shooter had the ball it was not a violation yet, so tell the kid to get off the line.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by oc
I am still replaying a situation that happened months ago in my head-please give some advice on how you would call it.

I would find a more important call to replay in my head for months. If you don't have one, you're doing well!!

Seriously, you should (a) learn to check before the ball is bounced. (b) hope the shooter swishes (c) call it when it happens. If you don't make a big deal out of it, neither will anyone else.

[RookieDude]

Whoo-eeee...boy, will you ever get some varying responses here!
Sooooo, you want us officials to ADMIT that we will sometimes let a violation go, hey?
Here is the "black and white" response:
The rules were put in place for a reason...so enforce them!
You wouldn't let a player touch the OOB line without a call, would you? So don't let a player touch any line they are not alowed to without a call! What other rules are you going to choose to ignore?

Here is the "advantage/disadvantage" response:
There was no advantage gained by the player barely touching the 3pt. line with his/her itsy bitsy toe. Why make such an absurd call? The opposing Coach probably wouldn't want you making that call on his/her player either.

Here is the "depends on" response:
depends on what level...call it in Middle School to teach them a lesson.
depends on what time of the game it is...maybe call it early, but don't you dare call it with one second left in a tie ball game during the State Championship game!

There are a few responses...fellow officials, let us hear more!

[SMEngmann]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that you usually catch these things early. Whenever I find myself in a situation like that, it's a reminder that I have to be more focused, especially on free throw situations.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Whoo-eeee...boy, will you ever get some varying responses here!
Sooooo, you want us officials to ADMIT that we will sometimes let a violation go, hey?

There are a few responses...fellow officials, let us hear more!

Feeling a little vituperous tonight, are we?!

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Feeling a little vituperous tonight, are we?!

Nah...not really ornery...just having a little fun at work tonight.

[Nevadaref]

Does the kid run in for the rebound? How soon can you tell whether or not this player will get the rebound?
If not part of the play, then I would strongly suggest to let it go.
I fall into the advantage/disadvantage category.

I had a personal experience with this call last season.
In a 3-man crew, I had a partner call this "violation" from the C, while I was T, on the defense during the first shot of a one-and-one with the shooter's team leading by one with 34 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.
The defender did not even move from the top of the key to attempt to rebound.
Of course, the shooter made the substitute throw.
It created a bad situation.
The coach went nuts, after the game a fan chased us down a hallway to a lockerroom telling us how good he thought we were, and a video tape of the game was sent to the league office.
All over a toe on a line which was about twenty feet from where the rebound was being contested.
JMHO

[NICK]

I saw a referee once call this particular violation of "toe on the line" during free throws. I thought it was an awful call and kind of ticky-tacky. The two players were having a little chat and forgot that they were close to line. There was no advantage gained, and neither player were going to go for the rebound. This made the referee look officious and pedantic too as he made the call from the lead position. Poor man-management skills.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by oc
I am still replaying a situation that happened months ago in my head-

Just be thankful the situation didn't happen on the court.

[SamIAm]

I make that call everytime. Lots of situations that the rule spells as a violation but may not have a advantage/disadvantage until the situation is played out. If the situation originally posted (violation not called) is seen by the coach, then later you call it on his player because the rebound goes toward his player, you have opened yourself up to trouble. And it is trouble you deserve.

Call the violation.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Whoo-eeee...boy, will you ever get some varying responses here!
Sooooo, you want us officials to ADMIT that we will sometimes let a violation go, hey?
Here is the "black and white" response:
The rules were put in place for a reason...so enforce them!
You wouldn't let a player touch the OOB line without a call, would you? So don't let a player touch any line they are not alowed to without a call! What other rules are you going to choose to ignore?

Here is the "advantage/disadvantage" response:
There was no advantage gained by the player barely touching the 3pt. line with his/her itsy bitsy toe. Why make such an absurd call? The opposing Coach probably wouldn't want you making that call on his/her player either.

Here is the "depends on" response:
depends on what level...call it in Middle School to teach them a lesson.
depends on what time of the game it is...maybe call it early, but don't you dare call it with one second left in a tie ball game during the State Championship game!

There are a few responses...fellow officials, let us hear more!

In the State Championship, when the kid standing on the line tips in the miss by beating everyone else in there thanks in small part to his eight-inch head start, and wins the game thanks to an illegal act that you saw and chose to ignore...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

In the State Championship, when the kid standing on the line tips in the miss by beating everyone else in there thanks in small part to his eight-inch head start, and wins the game thanks to an illegal act that you saw and chose to ignore...

The original play had the kid standing on the 3 pt line minding his own busness on the FT.

If that kid can get to the basket and tip in the miss without moving in too early I would stop the game and shake his hand.

IMO: there's nothing to be gained by calling this particular violation, but you need to make sure it doesn't happen again. If the coach is seriously barking at you for this you have bigger probems to deal with.

[Mark Padgett]

This has nothing to do with advantage/disadvantage. This has to do with whether or not the kid learns that he shouldn't be on the line. If he doesn't learn it's wrong, he will continue to do it.

As someone who trained officials for 13 years in a rec league that begins in 3rd grade, let me tell you that our philosophy was to make the call then tell the kid (nicely) why you made the call. We have found that is the best way for kids to learn the rules.

Kids need to learn from their mistakes. If it's not pointed out to them that they made a mistake (and that mistake has to be put in its proper context of importance), they will never learn.

[Camron Rust]

I'd ignore this one. (Assuming player was just standing there and not getting into the play). I'd also tell them, once, to make sure they were behind the line next time. It really is not the spirit of the rule to call players for touching the line if they're not distracting the shooter and not attempting to be part of the play. The rule is there to prevent players not on the lane from getting a good position for a rebound and also to prevent them from interfering with the shooter.

I called a similar violation in a playoff game this year. However, while the player was not going for the rebound, it was far more obvious. They were on offense and sort of wandering around waiting to play defense after the shot. They wandered to a point about 3 feet inside the arc and even with the FT line. Not a word from the coach to me.