Picking battles

[reffish]

Did some high school summer tournaments this weekend and picked a battle with a coach. He insisted to give "instructions" to his players during free throws. Of course, it was during the opponents free throws. I asked him to refrain from speaking during the free throw and he became flabbergasted At half time he wanted an explanation and I told him that opponents cannot disconcert the free thrower during his throw. He retorted that the packed gym will be making noise. I reminded him that opponents, not fans, cannot disconcert the free thrower. He disagreed. Sure enough, second half and he is giving "instructions" to his players, like box out, pinch that side, whose got the shooter, crap like that. Delay violation, miss first of two shot foul, and he is incredulous. Once more shot and he is again talking, delay, missed shot. To his credit he did stop after that one and just mumbled something about 35 years coaching he's never heard of such a thing. To cap it off, his guard is shooting and he said to one of his players to talk to the team because he couldn't talk during the free throws. I had to laugh at that one.

[Kelvin green]

I am going to be a p{}~k but based on the plays as described, I would not go looking for this... Sounds like coach was instructing/coaching...unless he is screaming the instructions, I d leave it alone....

I have done ball a long time and at several levels and cannot think of a time when a coach's behavior would rise to disconcerting...

[Nevadaref]

Good job, reffish. You properly enforced the rule.

Doesn't matter if he hasn't seen it done in 35 years of coaching.

There are several officials who would never call this either, but that doesn't make them right. It just means that they choose not to bother with it.

If you believe that what the coach is doing is distracting to the opposing FT shooter, then you are correct to call a violation for disconcertion. If it is persistent or unsporting, then you are correct to also charge a technical foul to the offending coach.

[tref]

Originally Posted by reffish

Sure enough, second half and he is giving "instructions" to his players, like box out, pinch that side, whose got the shooter, crap like that. Delay violation, miss first of two shot foul, and he is incredulous. Once more shot and he is again talking, delay, missed shot. To his credit he did stop after that one and just mumbled something about 35 years coaching he's never heard of such a thing. To cap it off, his guard is shooting and he said to one of his players to talk to the team because he couldn't talk during the free throws. I had to laugh at that one.

Ok in the 1st half its your judgment as to whether this coach is trying to disconcert or if he is just coaching/instructing his team. I've seen this before when the teams are shooting in front of the defensive bench. I'll give you that.

But the 2nd half?!?!?!
He's disconcerting from the backcourt 28' line to the frontcourt FT line extended? IDK
Sounds like the other team talked you into something or you just didnt have enough to do already.

The terms you provided that the coach used are things I hear coaches & players say all the time in a FT situation. I'd never tell a coach he cant talk... simply show the delayed FT violation mechanic. But be prepared to follow up with a T

[Adam]

To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.

Especially in the 2nd half.

[twocentsworth]

imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

" . . . your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them,"

. . . said the opposing coach whose player missed the free throw.

________________________________________________

BTW, I'm still trying to settle the question: if the disconcertion is committed by bench personnel such that it merits a call, must the penalty be a T for unsporting conduct, or would the penalty be a substitute free throw as per 9-1-3c whereby "No opponent" includes bench personnel as well as players on the floor?

I've squeezed by rulebook and casebook like a sponge, and I can't find anything that would preclude calling a violation on the bench personnel in this instance. The only thing opposing that is the apparent sentiment that a violation cannot ever be called on a non-player(s) which I also cannot find.

Any further definitive conclusions to share beyond what was given in the previously hijacked thread?

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Good job, reffish. You properly enforced the rule.

Doesn't matter if he hasn't seen it done in 35 years of coaching.

There are several officials who would never call this either, but that doesn't make them right. It just means that they choose not to bother with it.

If you believe that what the coach is doing is distracting to the opposing FT shooter, then you are correct to call a violation for disconcertion. If it is persistent or unsporting, then you are correct to also charge a technical foul to the offending coach.

As Stan Lee would say, "Nuff said".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

Originally Posted by Freddy

. . . said the opposing coach whose player missed the free throw.

And that opposing coach's opinion means exactly what? And has that player never missed a FT in a silent gym?

Originally Posted by Freddy

________________________________________________

BTW, I'm still trying to settle the question: if the disconcertion is committed by bench personnel such that it merits a call, must the penalty be a T for unsporting conduct, or would the penalty be a substitute free throw as per 9-1-3c whereby "No opponent" includes bench personnel as well as players on the floor?

I've squeezed by rulebook and casebook like a sponge, and I can't find anything that would preclude calling a violation on the bench personnel in this instance. The only thing opposing that is the apparent sentiment that a violation cannot ever be called on a non-player(s) which I also cannot find.

Any further definitive conclusions to share beyond what was given in the previously hijacked thread?

Disconcertion, whether by a player or by any member of the team, is a violation. I suppose that some specific actions could be deemed unsportsmanlike and penalized accordingly, possibly on top of also calling disconcertion in extreme cases but basic disconcertion by bench personnel is not a T.

That said, the threshold for what I'd consider disconcertion is much higher for bench personnel than for players along the lane or near the FT shooter. Their ability to effectively distract the shooter from 25-75' away is pretty limited.

[reffish]

twocents...I agree, at the end of the game, I spoke with my partner about battles to pick.

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

tref: The other coach did not influence me on my judgement. I agree to not in the future to address the coach, just delay violation and explain why and move on. Of course, T if it persists.

Cameron: Where is the line drawn? How much talk before you call the delay? Can the players in the lane talk? The players line up and there is no chatter, then the ball is bounced and then there is chatter on whose got who, box out here, pinch there and this is the first of a two shot foul? What is the intent? To distract the shooter! Just my opinion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

twocents...I agree, at the end of the game, I spoke with my partner about battles to pick.

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

tref: The other coach did not influence me on my judgement. I agree to not in the future to address the coach, just delay violation and explain why and move on. Of course, T if it persists.

Cameron: Where is the line drawn? How much talk before you call the delay? Can the players in the lane talk? The players line up and there is no chatter, then the ball is bounced and then there is chatter on whose got who, box out here, pinch there and this is the first of a two shot foul? What is the intent? To distract the shooter! Just my opinion.

Again, to me, the coach's comments would have to be perfectly timed, loud, and probably staccato, on order for me to even consider it.

With players on the lane, we all know what it looks like.

Bottom line, don't penalize the coach just because the gym is quiet.

That said, if you thought it was disconcertion, you needed to get it (as you did). Talk to the guys who work higher level ball in your area, get their opinions, and listen to them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again, to me, the coach's comments would have to be perfectly timed, loud, and probably staccato, on order for me to even consider it.

With players on the lane, we all know what it looks like.

Bottom line, don't penalize the coach just because the gym is quiet.

That said, if you thought it was disconcertion, you needed to get it (as you did). Talk to the guys who work higher level ball in your area, get their opinions, and listen to them.

+1

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To me, a coach's instructions would have to be pretty well timed and loud to constitute disconcertion.

I've seen it. Every time the FT shooter brings the ball to it's apogee, the coach yells "BOX OUT!" thrid time he did it, I just looked at him and gave a delayed dead ball. He knew what he was doing and I knew what he was doing.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

imho...your judgement needs to improve on which battles to pick....this is not one of them.

I don't think it's picking a battle. I think it's calling the game by the rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by reffish

Kelvin green: Instructions to box out on the first of two free throws? Instructions on who's got who? And the need to be very loud, not shouting, but loud during the free throw? What is the reason for this? To disconcert the thrower.

Hold the ball until he's finished. Then, ask the players while looking at him, "Everyone got that? Good, then there's no need to disconcert."

He'll get the point.