Tim Higgins

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually he bounced the ball twice. The first time you could say he batted the ball away from ball handler and the second one was an actual dribble. Then he gathered the ball (this is judgment of course) and put his foot down on the division line. The second foot landed out of bounds. You are right that this could have been a travel of the out of bounds was not called, but that assumes that they knew the clock was still running in their minds.
Peace

I don't follow. If you think it's a travel, you blow the whistle. Period. If after doing so, you think that the final horn clearly beat your whistle, fine: ballgame. But blowing the whistle is the only chance you have there to completely eliminate the possibility of a dreadful mistake.

As the C, Walton would have been completely justified in banging a travel there. But it appears that almost immediately after the St. John's player controlled the ball, Walton looked away for some reason. I don't think he saw the whole play, so I'd be shocked if he thought that a travel was even a remote possibility there.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jbduke

I don't follow. If you think it's a travel, you blow the whistle. Period. If after doing so, you think that the final horn clearly beat your whistle, fine: ballgame. But blowing the whistle is the only chance you have there to completely eliminate the possibility of a dreadful mistake.

So you call traveling when the clock has run out? Really??? And since you quoted what I said and highlighted, you must did not read it. You do not call anything if you are under the impression the game is over. They obviously thought the game was over or they would have looked at the monitor to see how much time to put on the clock. They did not do that, so they must have figured the game was over.

Originally Posted by jbduke

As the C, Walton would have been completely justified in banging a travel there. But it appears that almost immediately after the St. John's player controlled the ball, Walton looked away for some reason. I don't think he saw the whole play, so I'd be shocked if he thought that a travel was even a remote possibility there.

The person that would have called this was the Lead and that was Jim Burr. He has the ball, the feet and the line all in sight, much better than anyone across the court. Sorry, I am not making that call for an assumption. And across the court that is probably an assumption as you need to judge control. Burr had a much better look if he was looking there. Not sure how Higgins (the Trail) would see he is looking at the back of the player at best.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So you call traveling when the clock has run out?

By what indication was time expired? The horn? A backboard light? A partner's whistle? Until one of those happens, they should officiate the play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The person that would have called this was the Lead and that was Jim Burr. ...
Not sure how Higgins (the Trail) would see he is looking at the back of the player at best.

Peace

After the turnover, Burr was the Trail, Higgins (white hair) was the lead. Burr was looking at the back with Higgins having the best line view.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By what indication was time expired? The horn? A backboard light? A partner's whistle? Until one of those happens, they should officiate the play.

And what part did you read where I said they should not still be officiating? But I am sure you have been in gyms you have not heard any of those things. I know I could not tell many of these things in my little corner of the world just this week. I think they assumed that the game was over and stopped paying attention. They were obviously wrong but the only real explanation for what took place. How do you not see a kid step out of bounds and throw the ball in the air and still have time on the clock. Heck, Steve Lavin was acting like the game was over.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

After the turnover, Burr was the Trail, Higgens (white hair) was the lead. Burr was looking at the back with Higgins having the best line view.

You know they look alike to me.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Check it out again. You've got them reversed. As Jeff said, it was Burr's sideline with the play coming right at him.

In 3-person that sideline belongs to the trail. Since it's in transition should the lead help? Of course.

Walton had the clock, though. He could've called a travel and he should've known there was time left.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

In 3-person that sideline belongs to the trail. Since it's in transition should the lead help? Of course.

Walton had the clock, though. He could've called a travel and he should've known there was time left.

Point of edification here, for me and I know we have discussed it BUT: When you have the "clock" at the end of a game, do you blow your whistle when time expires/horn sounds/LED light is shown? Early in my career I was told to always hit your whistle to signal the end of the game rather than just have to horn sound. Do you think that would have helped in this case? I did not see the "C" make any signal when the game was over. Since the "official" criticism was they stopped officiating a signal here would have helped abate that criticism. IMO, I would have liked to have seen the "C" come across with SOMETHING, either waving the game over, a travel or at very least an innocuous raised hand. Again, IMO, it looked like he THOUGHT something funky had happened but didn't know what and at least this would have given them a chance to huddle and sort things out before they left. Just pondering.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Point of edification here, for me and I know we have discussed it BUT: When you have the "clock" at the end of a game, do you blow your whistle when time expires/horn sounds/LED light is shown? Early in my career I was told to always hit your whistle to signal the end of the game rather than just have to horn sound. Do you think that would have helped in this case? I did not see the "C" make any signal when the game was over. Since the "official" criticism was they stopped officiating a signal here would have helped abate that criticism. IMO, I would have liked to have seen the "C" come across with SOMETHING, either waving the game over, a travel or at very least an innocuous raised hand. Again, IMO, it looked like he THOUGHT something funky had happened but didn't know what and at least this would have given them a chance to huddle and sort things out before they left. Just pondering.

Yes. We always, ALWAYS have a whistle and either a stop-clock signal (if there's no shot) or a wave off if there is and it's too late. Obviously, if a shot's off in time, we have nothing until the shot either scores or doesn't (and if it doesn't we THEN blow a whistle).

I've noticed that NCAAM officials don't use their whistles as often as the NCAAW (or NFHS officials that I work with) do. Subs, for example, frequently come in without a whistle in NCAAM games that I see and I *always* whistle subs in and so do my partners.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

In 3-person that sideline belongs to the trail. Since it's in transition should the lead help? Of course.

Walton had the clock, though. He could've called a travel and he should've known there was time left.

In my experience the Lead and the Trail always help each other out on these plays. They are spread out all over the court and it might be who has the better look. There are not primaries the same way there are in transition.

Peace

[biz]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Check it out again. You've got them reversed. As Jeff said, it was Burr's sideline with the play coming right at him.

Incorrect. On the prior FT Higgins is the L Burr is the T and Walton is the C. So on the ensuing throw in Burr is new L and Higgins is administering the throw in as the T. When posession changes (when the St. Johns player makes the steal) Now Higgins becomes the new L and Burr is the new T.

The problem might have been (no way to know for sure, of course) that the person who was in the best position to see the OOB was the new L (Higgins - he was right on the sideline with the play coming toward him) but as we all know that's not his line, but if you look at the replay that is from behind the basket the new T (Burr) is (for some reason) coming up the floor from the middle of the paint. He isn't in a good position to see his line.

I think this COULD be a case where in transition everyone needs to expand their coverage areas and cover each others backs to make sure that the crew gets the call right. Of course there's no way to know if this is truly what happened, but I could see this being the case.

Just my $.02

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by biz

Incorrect. On the prior FT Higgins is the L Burr is the T and Walton is the C. So on the ensuing throw in Burr is new L and Higgins is administering the throw in as the T. When posession changes (when the St. Johns player makes the steal) Now Higgins becomes the new L and Burr is the new T.

The problem might have been (no way to know for sure, of course) that the person who was in the best position to see the OOB was the new L (Higgins - he was right on the sideline with the play coming toward him) but as we all know that's not his line, but if you look at the replay that is from behind the basket the new T (Burr) is (for some reason) coming up the floor from the middle of the paint. He isn't in a good position to see his line.

...

Because of this:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why is Burr 94' from the throw-in? He is standing on the endline in the middle of the paint. He is no help on the play. If he had set up free throw line extended to help with the catch and any 3-point attempts he would have been in position to view the OOB.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by biz

Incorrect. On the prior FT Higgins is the L Burr is the T and Walton is the C. So on the ensuing throw in Burr is new L and Higgins is administering the throw in as the T. When posession changes (when the St. Johns player makes the steal) Now Higgins becomes the new L and Burr is the new T.

Upon further review, you're completely right and I had 'em reversed.

Maybe Jeff was right. All those tubby white guys do look alike.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Upon further review, you're completely right and I had 'em reversed.

Maybe Jeff was right. All those tubby white guys do look alike.

I thought maybe you were deleting old posts to keep yourself at 19999.

[26 Year Gap]

It very well could be a PCA issue. Both new L and new T certainly had a clear view in periphery of the LED. "Be late, be needed & be right" probably should have been employed here. "Thanks for saving my butt" is a phrase I have used on occasion when someone has gotten something in my PCA because I was either straight-lined or out of position.

If any of you guys know much about Sir Alex Ferguson, then you can imagine that the supervisor might just have employed the "hair dryer treatment" in the post-game.

Just re-watched. New L looks straight-lined by SJ player AND THE COACH WHO WAS WAY OUT OF HIS BOX. Plus, a Rutgers player may have been obstructing a clear view. There must be some other views that are not on the video because I cannot see the new T anywhere. Or even the end line.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So you call traveling when the clock has run out? Really???

So you don't make a call because you think the clock might have run out? Really? Better to make this call after the buzzer than to miss/ignore it with more than a second left.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you don't make a call because you think the clock might have run out? Really? Better to make this call after the buzzer than to miss/ignore it with more than a second left.

I do not know about you, but when the game is over, I do not blow the whistle and make an additional call. As a matter of fact when I think the game is over, I might indicate the game is over. Now based on previous posts you do not work three person it is not common for the C to make this call across the court even if time had been in play. The only person that would have likely made this call would have been the T or C and only if they had a clear view. I cannot recall ever making a call like this when the line is at play and I would call a travel completely across the court.

Peace