I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

You're not the only one.

Was he a saint? No. But OFC1 invited that grief upon himself by being so off-base on so many rules.

Item 1 was completely innocuous. Nothing he said was unsportsmanlike and it was a true statement. Plus, the ref blew the call.

Item 2 was certainly flirting with going too far and he was even wrong on the point he was making (you don't have LGP when you are running beside someone). That should have at least drawn a warning to the HC about the assistant's behavior.

Item 3 wasn't him....at least the part that was worthy of much attention or a T. And the ref had blown the call.

Item 4 was indeed too much and deserved a T....but he was right and the ref either knew it or at least doubted himself. The ref was in a dilemma about whether to call a T and/or eject the head coach (with no rule to support that) and expose his mistake(s) or retreat and take it as a learning experience. At the beginning, he was simply telling his players were to go (legally) and to not listen to the official. The coaches, even assistant coaches if they're seated, have the right to direct their players were to be on the court and how to play the game. Even if that instruction puts them in violation of a rule, then the officials should just make the call...particularly when the official suggests they move back and the coach directs them to stay. And even so, it would have only been a FT violation if the shot was missed...nothing more....certainly not a T or an ejection of the head coach. The ref was writing his one rules on this one and deserved to be called on it.

In the end, I can only hope OFC1 goes home and opens his rulebook so he doesn't invite that kind of trouble again by BS'ing his way through situations.

[just another ref]

With regard to item 4, I see this as an example of "Pick your battles." Clearly the official was wrong, didn't have a leg to stand on, but is this a hill worth dying on? This is a victimless crime. Don't try to show an official up over this.
All you're gonna do is piss him off.

[Jurassic Referee]

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

Can you show me where Juddtech attempted to excuse or justify his behavior? Like I said, one poor game doesn't make a coach a bad person; especially when he seems legitimately remorseful. I just don't get how we've turned him into Hitler over this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Can you show me where Juddtech attempted to excuse or justify his behavior? Like I said, one poor game doesn't make a coach a bad person; especially when he seems legitimately remorseful. I just don't get how we've turned him into Hitler over this.

Seeing the biological father that I never saw has been lying in an Air Force military cemetary since 1944 after being KIA on his 30th mission, I really don't think your likening my detest for his actions as turning him into Hitler is very appropriate. I would never dream of making that particular comparison of anyone short of a mass murderer, let alone Judtech no matter how bad Judtech's actions might be in my mind. I detest Judtech's actions and I judged him on those alone. I don't know him as a person.

JUDTECH- "And yes it had the DESIRED affect of freezing their shooter as she procededed to miss her second shot".

That was a deliberate and admittedly planned unsporting act of intimidation to gain an advantage for his girls high school team. You rationalize it. I won't. I don't care how bad the officials are, there is NO excuse imo for behavior like that. If you're getting bad officiating, then complain about it using the appropriate and proper procedure.

Earlier this year, I had an extremely promising young official quit over similar actions from a coach. Deliberate acts to try and intimidate him. Good kid I'd know for years. Knew his father fairly well too. The kid was an outstanding high school player, played college ball while getting his degree and came back to this area to work. Now married with a young daughter. He did a little bit of officiating for us as a high school senior and during summers. He wanted to get involved with officiating again and I thought he had the potential to go to the college level. Now he's gone forever and our association...and basketball in our area.... are the poorer for it.

Can I forgive and forget? Nope. But I certainly can hope that the treatment that Judtech received here will stop him from repeating what he did in the future. And from his later posts, I think that it just might do that. At least maybe he'll think about it the next time he feels like going after officials.

We just have completely different perspectives, Snaqs. That's all I'm going to say.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Seeing the biological father that I never saw has been lying in an Air Force military cemetary since 1944 after being KIA on his 30th mission, I really don't think your likening my detest for his actions as turning him into Hitler is very appropriate. I would never dream of making that particular comparison of anyone short of a mass murderer, let alone Judtech no matter how bad Judtech's actions might be in my mind. I detest Judtech's actions and I judged him on those alone. I don't know him as a person.

First and foremost, my comparison was admittedly over-the-top. I should have known better, and used a different comparison.

I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JUDTECH- "And yes it had the DESIRED affect of freezing their shooter as she procededed to miss her second shot".

That was a deliberate and admittedly planned unsporting act of intimidation to gain an advantage for his girls high school team. You rationalize it. I won't.

I'm not going to rationalize it, and I don't think he has either. He's stating his intention at the time of the act, not his thoughts afterwards.

One more thing on this point, it only worked to ice the shooter because the official pressed the issue. Once the official blew his whistle to tell the players to move back, the icing was completed.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't care how bad the officials are, there is NO excuse imo for behavior like that. If you're getting bad officiating, then complain about it using the appropriate and proper procedure.

Earlier this year, I had an extremely promising young official quit over similar actions from a coach. Deliberate acts to try and intimidate him. Good kid I'd know for years. Knew his father fairly well too. The kid was an outstanding high school player, played college ball while getting his degree and came back to this area to work. Now married with a young daughter. He did a little bit of officiating for us as a high school senior and during summers. He wanted to get involved with officiating again and I thought he had the potential to go to the college level. Now he's gone forever and our association...and basketball in our area.... are the poorer for it.

Can I forgive and forget? Nope. But I certainly can hope that the treatment that Judtech received here will stop him from repeating what he did in the future. And from his later posts, I think that it just might do that. At least maybe he'll think about it the next time he feels like going after officials.

This is perhaps the most salient point made in this thread. There's no place for intimidating tactics, to be sure. That's a coaching issue. From an official's perspective, what about training? I'm seeing this a serious lack of training manifest itself in this;
1. This guy didn't know basic stuff.
2. He didn't know how to properly deal with a mouthy AC.

Let me add, that it seems he knew right away it was inappropriate. This post refers to a practice that likely occurred before he read the comments on this thread:

Originally Posted by Judtech

As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We just have completely different perspectives, Snaqs. That's all I'm going to say.

Maybe, your perspective is that of a trainer/assigner who deals with the attrition that comes with the way officials are treated by some coaches and fans.

Mine is that of a younger official who's still learning this game. And while I'm not justifying or rationalizing his behavior which has effectively been shown to be lacking in sportsmanship, I don't think we should let these officials off the proverbial hook either. Granted, they're not here to defend themselves, but if nothing else, there's training to be done in how to effectively silence a mouthy AC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

First and foremost, my comparison was admittedly over-the-top. I should have known better, and used a different comparison.

I'm sorry.

Thank you....and appreciated, Snaqs.

No matter how mad I ever get with Judtech...rightly or wrongly on my part....I'd never dream of making that type of comparison of him. And if I was ever stoopid enough to unthinkingly do something like that, I'd apologize to him in a heartbeat.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

And because you support officials in general, I will always have enormous respect for you and the majority (imo) of officials like you. We can argue and fight amongst ourself, but we are family.

Thank you.

[rsl]

Originally Posted by jurassic referee

for many, many years i've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc naso did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like judtech.you know mine. And i'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And i respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

+1

[Da Official]

Wow...great stuff! I hate that I have been working and missed getting in on the 9 pages of conversations.

1st of all....I personally THANK Judtech for bringing his personal experience to the Forum....a place where MOST of us (Officials and Coaches) come to learn about the game to become BETTER (Officials and Coaches). Some call it bragging some call it sharing....either way thanks for the story Jud!

2nd. There is a LOT that can be learned from Judtech's "bad night" so this was a very valuable discussion in my eyes.

3rd I have been officiating for a few years...and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

4th Let's not forget that Judtech was in the role of COACH not OFFICIAL during this game and he was within his coaching right to act an @zz if he wanted to. It is the job of the OFFICIAL to deal with coaches and players when they get out of line. They obviously didn't.

5th Everybody has a computer...so everybody has an opinion....just put my opinion with all the other 9 pages of rants I've just read...

Thanks everyone on your thoughts....this is what makes this gathering hole a great learning place....

Peace...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Da Official

3rd I have been officiating for a few years...and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

Disagree. If that were the coach's job, then it wouldn't be explicitly prohibited by rule (10-4-1b).

IMO this myth more than most is harmful to good games.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Da Official

and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

he was within his coaching right to act an @zz if he wanted to.

Those are the conclusions you have come to??? Have you ever read the Coaches Code of Ethics put out by the NFHS?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

I dunno, if some coach came in with that story, the first thing I am thinking is "Would the officials in question give the same version of "facts" that we are hearing? I rather doubt it."

I suspect Judtech is giving us a very particular version of events that at best only includes the facts that make his story the most interesting, and at worst could be largely fabricated as far as what the officials in question actually said, or did not say.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I dunno, if some coach came in with that story, the first thing I am thinking is "Would the officials in question give the same version of "facts" that we are hearing? I rather doubt it."

I suspect Judtech is giving us a very particular version of events that at best only includes the facts that make his story the most interesting, and at worst could be largely fabricated as far as what the officials in question actually said, or did not say.

So you're calling him a liar?