I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

You are preaching to the Chior Woddy...and if this idiot thought he could find forgiveness in this Church...he came into the wrong sanctuary.

If I was Judtech...I would change my name and start all over again. I, for one, will always see this jerk as a classless, loudmouth, ASSISTANT COACH...that EVEN tried to justify his actions to a REAL group of officials.

Didn't John Wooden say:

"Your REPUTATION is how others PERCEIVE you...your CHARACTER is what you REALLY are."

P.S. Did this guy's wife really use Profanity as the Coach of a bunch of girls? What great role models these two are.

Your quote is spot on. Your PS is a tad off. (Dont take this as accusatory, these are just 'big picture" questions intended to make people think. I use the word "you" in its plural sense):
How do you judge ones character? Would anyone like to have their character called into question b/c of one incident/mistake? People are far to eager to rush to judgement, make personal attacks and impune character of people they either don't know or limited if any information about. To use your words. You call me a jerk and classless loudmouth assistant coach. How do you know that? Of the 150+ games my wife and I have coached together, do you know how many incidents like this I have had? That answer would be a better judge of character then this one thread. Do you know how my association feels about my bench behavior? Have you seen my interaction with other officials at games
I coach or not? What disqualifies me as a "Real" official in your mind? These admitted inappropriate actions? Or do you know my body of work with which to make this decision?
You make a point about my wifes use of language. Do you know how often she swears? (at me doesn't count, b/c sometimes it is too cold to take out the garbage) Yet you write her off as a bad role model for female athletes. Do you do the same for Pat Summit C Vivian Stringer Geno or Tara Van DeVeer? Do you know her background? Do you know the types of players that we work with?

Maybe I just live in Mambi Pambi land, but I don't pass character judgement on anyone on this board (even Jurassic) b/c I don't know you personaly. I look at the mistakes people bring to this board as just that, mistakes, not windows into their soul and character. Do we judge all peoples character by actions they wish they hand't commited?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

What disqualifies me as a "Real" official in your mind? These admitted inappropriate actions?

Do you know what you've learned from this so far, Judtech? You've learned not to tell officials when you pull unsporting crap like that. From the excuses that you still insist on making, what you haven't learned yet though is to never pull unsporting crap like that. Oh, you'll still do it in the future. I've got no doubts about that. You just won't post about it here.

[Adam]

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

I'll add that it's a good thing I'm not coaching, because knowing myself as well as I do, I wouldn't react well to officials who don't know some very basic rules (like the fact that touching a rolling basketball does not equate to player control, thus traveling is impossible.) I would not respond well to an official telling my players they had to be behind the division line for technical foul free throws.

I'm more inclined to judge people based on what I know and how I've been trained, and that means I'm going to be more inclined to judge an official's rules knowledge than I am a coach's behavior.

And I'm certainly not going to judge a man's character based on a post he made while the adrenaline was still flowing from an incident like this. I don't recall him ever coming on here before and talking about having behaved like this, so it does seem to be an isolated incident. Y'all do whatever, though; it's a free country.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

You're not the only one.

Was he a saint? No. But OFC1 invited that grief upon himself by being so off-base on so many rules.

Item 1 was completely innocuous. Nothing he said was unsportsmanlike and it was a true statement. Plus, the ref blew the call.

Item 2 was certainly flirting with going too far and he was even wrong on the point he was making (you don't have LGP when you are running beside someone). That should have at least drawn a warning to the HC about the assistant's behavior.

Item 3 wasn't him....at least the part that was worthy of much attention or a T. And the ref had blown the call.

Item 4 was indeed too much and deserved a T....but he was right and the ref either knew it or at least doubted himself. The ref was in a dilemma about whether to call a T and/or eject the head coach (with no rule to support that) and expose his mistake(s) or retreat and take it as a learning experience. At the beginning, he was simply telling his players were to go (legally) and to not listen to the official. The coaches, even assistant coaches if they're seated, have the right to direct their players were to be on the court and how to play the game. Even if that instruction puts them in violation of a rule, then the officials should just make the call...particularly when the official suggests they move back and the coach directs them to stay. And even so, it would have only been a FT violation if the shot was missed...nothing more....certainly not a T or an ejection of the head coach. The ref was writing his one rules on this one and deserved to be called on it.

In the end, I can only hope OFC1 goes home and opens his rulebook so he doesn't invite that kind of trouble again by BS'ing his way through situations.

[just another ref]

With regard to item 4, I see this as an example of "Pick your battles." Clearly the official was wrong, didn't have a leg to stand on, but is this a hill worth dying on? This is a victimless crime. Don't try to show an official up over this.
All you're gonna do is piss him off.

[Jurassic Referee]

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

Can you show me where Juddtech attempted to excuse or justify his behavior? Like I said, one poor game doesn't make a coach a bad person; especially when he seems legitimately remorseful. I just don't get how we've turned him into Hitler over this.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

[rsl]

Originally Posted by jurassic referee

for many, many years i've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc naso did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like judtech.you know mine. And i'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And i respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

+1

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

I dunno, if some coach came in with that story, the first thing I am thinking is "Would the officials in question give the same version of "facts" that we are hearing? I rather doubt it."

I suspect Judtech is giving us a very particular version of events that at best only includes the facts that make his story the most interesting, and at worst could be largely fabricated as far as what the officials in question actually said, or did not say.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

With regard to item 4, I see this as an example of "Pick your battles." Clearly the official was wrong, didn't have a leg to stand on, but is this a hill worth dying on? This is a victimless crime. Don't try to show an official up over this.
All you're gonna do is piss him off.

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

Except there's no real need for the players to be there, other than the OP using that to show up the official that doesn't know the rules. The lane is cleared and there's going to be a throw in after the FTs. I'd just roll my eyes, tell the players to go behind the division line, and report this to the assignor after the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

Jud admitted his goal for the whole "3 point line" incident was to ice the shooter. Had really only about 10% to do with principles and 90% to do with disrupting the game and making the official look bad.

I was the first one to call him all his behavior. And I stand by my original opinion that he was just being a jerk. That doesn't mean he's a jerk all the time. But that night he was.

What I take a bigger exception to is that he feels the need to fight the HC's battles. If the HC has a problem with any of the situations that occurred let her deal with the officials. Seeing as he is married to the HC Jud should be doing a better job of teaching her the rules so that she recognizes what is going on and so she can ask the correct questions of the officials.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're not the only one.

Was he a saint? No. But OFC1 invited that grief upon himself by being so off-base on so many rules.

Thank you.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

I'll add that it's a good thing I'm not coaching, because knowing myself as well as I do, I wouldn't react well to officials who don't know some very basic rules (like the fact that touching a rolling basketball does not equate to player control, thus traveling is impossible.) I would not respond well to an official telling my players they had to be behind the division line for technical foul free throws.

I'm more inclined to judge people based on what I know and how I've been trained, and that means I'm going to be more inclined to judge an official's rules knowledge than I am a coach's behavior.

And I'm certainly not going to judge a man's character based on a post he made while the adrenaline was still flowing from an incident like this. I don't recall him ever coming on here before and talking about having behaved like this, so it does seem to be an isolated incident. Y'all do whatever, though; it's a free country.

I couldn't agree more. Judd's mea culpa has been met with mostly pi$$ & vinegar instead of being a learning experience for all.

I, personally, appreciate hearing from the coaches' side. It helps me understand the dynamics involved in emotional game situations. This understanding helps us become better officials, IMO. Like it, or not, we are in the people business. Learning to deal with people well will make you a better official.

Jurassic, you are correct to point out that Judd's behavior was unacceptable. Judd has acknowledged the same. Jurassic, you are wrong to question Judd's ability to be a good coach or good official based on one situation.

If one mistake is all it takes to disqualify somebody as a good official or coach, then both Jurassic and Judd fall short and should turn in their whistles/clipboards pronto.

Of course, the miscues well documented by both in this thread do not and should not define them. Instead, let's take from this thread what we really should: an excellent learning experience for us all.