Pass that goes in.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

It sure seems that way. If there's clearly a try for three, and it falls below the rim, then the try for three is done, hence the two points.

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

I tend to think it would cut both ways, though. If A-1 is in the lane, and attempts a pass to A-2 in the corner, but it's blocked hard into the basket by B-3, who is next to A-2 and outside the arc, I would say that's a two-pointer. Again, it's where the offense releases the ball, right?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

On the 2nd one, it never hits A2's hands.

If it's a try, the try is over when it's apparent it won't score. So it's NOT a try. It's just a B player that knocked the ball into A's basket.

And yes, I missed that it didn't hit the hands and changed that.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

not true

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

It sure seems that way. If there's clearly a try for three, and it falls below the rim, then the try for three is done, hence the two points.

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

I tend to think it would cut both ways, though. If A-1 is in the lane, and attempts a pass to A-2 in the corner, but it's blocked hard into the basket by B-3, who is next to A-2 and outside the arc, I would say that's a two-pointer. Again, it's where the offense releases the ball, right?

The only way to reconcile the two cases is to accept that it is based not on the intent of the original throw but on the trajectory of the ball as it leaves the original thrower's hands. If it leaves the thrower's hand on a path towards the basket, count it for 3 if it goes in. Once it is not heading towards the basket, it can no longer be a 3.

[Jurassic Referee]

What Camron said.

If it's got a chance to go in, treat it as a try. If it doesn't have a chance to go in or if the try has ended under NFHS R4-41-4, treat it as a loose ball. Rule accordingly in both cases.

And quit thinking so damn much.....

[Adam]

I just don't know what to do with BktBallRef and Jurassic Referee disagreeing? My head might explode.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I just don't know what to do with BktBallRef and Jurassic Referee disagreeing? My head might explode.

Where did we disagree?

He said a try is over if when it's apparent that it won't score. That's what 4-41-4 says also.

Methinks BktBallRef, Camron and myself are saying the same thing but maybe with different semantics.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Where did we disagree?

He said a try is over if when it's apparent that it won't score. That's what 4-41-4 says also.

Methinks BktBallRef, Camron and myself are saying the same thing but maybe with different semantics.

When he suggested this play:

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

is a three. Maybe I didn't describe it well, but that pass never had a chance to go in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When he suggested this play:
is a three. Maybe I didn't describe it well, but that pass never had a chance to go in.

Ah...

I didn't even read that one. Agree. That ain't a 3 by rule as per the reason cited above by you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

3. No different than the case play.

Nope. 3. No different than the case play. Both interpreters are wrong.



2. As Jurassic stated, once it's fallen below the basket, it's a 2.

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

Then how do they support the understanding that try is somehow different? 4.41.4B has no rule justification; it's still a thrown ball. But we're supposed to give the offense 3 points if it's a pass but 2 if it's a try?

[Adam]

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

Reach for the sky.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

It used to a long time ago. If we thought it was a pass, rather than a shot, from behind the three point line, and the ball went in the hoop, then only two points were scored. We were really good mind readers back then.