What would you do?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

there are a couple of issues here, IMHO:

1) the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket. these plays should be called by the Lead...because the Lead has the best view of where the defender came from, when he got there, and if he established LGP (remember, the defender that takes the charge is not the primary-on-ball-defender...it's the defender coming over from the help-side...the Lead is the only official with a good view on this play).

Count me as one who disagrees with this as well. In our area the general rule is that as the C or T you take a play that starts in your primary all the way to the basket. Yes, the L will most likely be responsible for the secondary defender BUT the OP does not mention if it was a secondary or primary defender.

Also, there are instances where the secondary defender comes from the C's area if the play comes from the T side to the C's side of the paint and before the L has come over.

Either way, I completely disagree with a blanket statement that the C should not have a call on block/charges going to the basket or that the help side defender is always the one who takes, or attempts to take, the charge.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Where I come from...we pre-game this to be the L's call IF it is a secondary defender in the L's primary.

+1 with emphasis on including this in your pre-game

[jeffpea]

since this is a discussion board...I'll ask a question for discussion: let's assume we ALL know that a good official referees the defense.... "When at C and a drive to the basket starts in your area, what defender are you looking at?"

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

since this is a discussion board...I'll ask a question for discussion: let's assume we ALL know that a good official referees the defense.... "When at C and a drive to the basket starts in your area, what defender are you looking at?"

The primary defender. We all get that...and we all get that if a secondary defender comes across, the L should have the whistle on that.

But that's not what you said in your first post...you flat-out said that the C should NEVER have a whistle on block/charge going to the basket. And that is incorrect.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by iref4him

HS game:

I at the C position. White 23 drives the lane in my PCA. I am referring the defense. Blue 11 has a legal guarding position and gets plowed over. ...

Originally Posted by jeffpea

since this is a discussion board...I'll ask a question for discussion: let's assume we ALL know that a good official referees the defense.... "When at C and a drive to the basket starts in your area, what defender are you looking at?"

But in this scenario the OP said he was ref'n the defense and the play was in his PCA. Maybe it was a zone defense and no one was on W23 when he started his drive.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The primary defender. We all get that...and we all get that if a secondary defender comes across, the L should have the whistle on that.

But that's not what you said in your first post...you flat-out said that the C should NEVER have a whistle on block/charge going to the basket. And that is incorrect.

sometimes officials "see" things that just are there...obviously, based on rockyroad's last post - we can now say that sometimes officials "read" things that just aren't there...

I did not use the word NEVER. My exact words were: "the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket"....while anyone can try to parse what that means...we all can agree that "NEVER" did not appear, correct?

[jeffpea]

the defender that we are all looking at is the on-ball defender (the one who is getting beat on the drive to the basket). the defender who is involved in the block/charge play (99.9% of the time) is the weak-side defender coming across the lane. it is extremely difficult for the C to officiate that play correctly (the C can have a whistle and make a call - but his call accuracy is going to be significantly lower than the L who has a better look at this play).

if I am a assignor of officials, on-site game observer, coach, official, player, or fan, then I want the call to be correct. if I want the call to be correct, then I want the official who is in the best position with the best view of the play...that would be the L on block/charge plays going to the basket from C.

after all, last years Duke vs Butler NCAA Championship game has shown us that when the crew blew their whistles - they were correct 90% of the time; when they didn't blow their whistles - they were correct only 50% of the time...the key reason they didn't blow their whistle?...they were out of position and could not see the play (all of this, btw, is from the NCAA National Coordinator of Officials)...

if you want to, continue to have C make the call on plays as described in the OP, but just know that the accuracy of that call has been/is now/and will continue to be, lower than allowing the L to make that call.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

sometimes officials "see" things that just are there...obviously, based on rockyroad's last post - we can now say that sometimes officials "read" things that just aren't there...

I did not use the word NEVER. My exact words were: "the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket"....while anyone can try to parse what that means...we all can agree that "NEVER" did not appear, correct?

Don't quibble. Your statement entails either a general or a universal rule. Both are wrong.

That's ok. We all make mistakes. Just own them.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Don't quibble. Your statement entails either a general or a universal rule. Both are wrong.

That's ok. We all make mistakes. Just own them.

ever heard "the tape doesn't lie"?...maybe not because a vast percentage of high school officials never watch tape to improve their accuracy, positioning, mechanics, or skills....

i may get calls wrong, but it's not because I was too stubborn to let the official with the best view make the call.

if you have any interest in improving as an official, you'll analyze plays and figure out a better way to call them....

keep having the C call the block/charge play going to the basket...you and Stevie Wonder will have about the same chance of getting it right!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by iref4him

HS game:

I at the C position. White 23 drives the lane in my PCA. I am referring the defense. Blue 11 has a legal guarding position and gets plowed over. I blow my whistle and look across the key and the 'L' has a whistle. I make eye contact with him and wait. The game is at stand still. I waited about a second (so it seems). I call the charge. White coach is upset, yada yada yada.

At half time, as soon as we get in the locker room, that same official gets in my face telling me that I was out of position, it was his primary, and I didn't even look at him. I said I waited to see what you had. He said that he had a foul on the arm. I told him that blue 11 had legal guarding position. AT that time he calls me a liar.

What would you do now?

Tell the L where the play originated from, and that in fact, it is "my primary" and that he is the liar because you did look right at him.

Then tell him that needs to be more professional at half-time.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

sometimes officials "see" things that just are there...obviously, based on rockyroad's last post - we can now say that sometimes officials "read" things that just aren't there...

I did not use the word NEVER. My exact words were: "the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket"....while anyone can try to parse what that means...we all can agree that "NEVER" did not appear, correct?

Hard to stay on your feet while doing all that back-pedaling?

So A3 catches a pass on the wing on C's side...B is playing a 2-3 zone and has lost track of A3. There is no defender within 10 feet of him. A3 drives to the basket where B4 is standing and waiting - B4 has clearly established LGP. The expected crash ensues...you would have the C wait for the L to call this because in your blanket-statement world the C should not have a whistle on this type of play. Even though there was nothing else for the C to be looking at? Even though it is clearly on the C's side of the key?

Ok...if you say so.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

hard to stay on your feet while doing all that back-pedaling?

So a3 catches a pass on the wing on c's side...b is playing a 2-3 zone and has lost track of a3. There is no defender within 10 feet of him. A3 drives to the basket where b4 is standing and waiting - b4 has clearly established lgp. The expected crash ensues...you would have the c wait for the l to call this because in your blanket-statement world the c should not have a whistle on this type of play. Even though there was nothing else for the c to be looking at? Even though it is clearly on the c's side of the key?

Ok...if you say so.

+1,000

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

ever heard "the tape doesn't lie"?...maybe not because a vast percentage of high school officials never watch tape to improve their accuracy, positioning, mechanics, or skills....

i may get calls wrong, but it's not because I was too stubborn to let the official with the best view make the call.

if you have any interest in improving as an official, you'll analyze plays and figure out a better way to call them....

keep having the C call the block/charge play going to the basket...you and Stevie Wonder will have about the same chance of getting it right!

Wow!

Just "WOW"!

Not really the best way to justify your position imo fwiw, Jeff.

...just saying.....

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wow!

Just "WOW"!

Not really the best way to justify your position imo fwiw, Jeff.

...just saying.....

Wellllll,J.R... you know us terrible High School refs who never watch no film or nothun...we're just too darn stubborn to ever improve. Especially on those pesky block/charge plays.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

sometimes officials "see" things that just are there...obviously, based on rockyroad's last post - we can now say that sometimes officials "read" things that just aren't there...

I did not use the word NEVER. My exact words were: "the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket"....while anyone can try to parse what that means...we all can agree that "NEVER" did not appear, correct?

Huh?

Exactly what part of ""the C should not have a whistle" allows for the possibility that the C could have a whistle? That is 100% synonymous with "NEVER".