backboard

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

In this particular play, there was little no doubt it was not a pass

A1 was trying to connect with A2 who had slipped behind the defender. A1 never jumped and made the throw with two hands over the top of his head.

In accordance to NFHS rules, this would be illegal, because it was not a try? What would be the call?

Little? If there's any doubt, the accepted practice is to rule it a try. And as I said, unless you're a mind-reader, there always has to be some doubt, no matter how small.

The bottom line on this particular call, Johnny, is that afaik it's almost universally accepted that anything thrown off their own board should be judged a try. By strict reading of the rule though, you can judge it as being a pass. But there's also the fact that you might be right in theory in judging it a pass but be very, very wrong in real life if you do so. My advice fwiw is that you should find out from someone in your area...assignor, rules interpreter, etc.... how they want you to call this particular play. Don't be "that guy".

Btw, this exact play is currently being discussed on 2 other basketball officiating discussion forums, even as we speak. The almost unanimous consensus seems to be that the accepted call everywhere is to deem it a try all the time.

[Johnny Ringo]

Thanks JR. That helps.

I should not have said "little" ... should have said none. A1 even said to A2 on the other end of the floor: "My bad!" once they were on the other end of the floor.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

But there's also the fact that you might be right in theory in judging it a pass but be very, very wrong in real life if you do so.

I once heard a very good official give a talk where he said "You might be right, but you'll be the rightest official sitting at home at tournament time".

[26 Year Gap]

And there is another guy who posts here who MIGHT say, "Don't be a plumber." [Okay. He probably WOULD say it].

[BillyMac]

Can I play now?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Jurassic Referee .... I appreciate your detailed answer.

In this particular play, there was little no doubt it was not a pass

A1 was trying to connect with A2 who had slipped behind the defender. A1 never jumped and made the throw with two hands over the top of his head.

In accordance to NFHS rules, this would be illegal, because it was not a try? What would be the call?

Thanks!!!

The try is not a factor. The following play ruling allows any thrown ball.

DRIBBLE RULE
*9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws
the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c)
an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own
backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an
official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-2; Fundamental 19)

[BillyMac]

Nevadaref just muddied the water a little bit.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Let me just get this straight in my mind: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he throws the ball against his own backboard and catches the ball. Legal; because a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

I don't understand the "equipment" explanation, but a casebook play is as good as any other rule citation.

OK. So now we know that the player can stop his dribble, throw it off his own backboard, and legally catch it. My question now: Does he legally "have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble"? I say that he legally can shoot the ball, but I still say that he cannot legally start a new dribble because he never attempted a try. According to the 60 Seconds On Officiating website, A1 now does have "the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble". I still say, "No".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nevadaref just muddied the water a little bit.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Let me just get this straight in my mind: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he throws the ball against his own backboard and catches the ball. Legal; because a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

I don't understand the "equipment" explanation, but a casebook play is as good as any other rule citation.

OK. So now we know that the player can stop his dribble, throw it off his own backboard, and legally catch it. My question now: Does he legally "have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble"? I say that he legally can shoot the ball, but I still say that he cannot legally start a new dribble because he never attempted a try. According to the 60 Seconds On Officiating website, A1 now does have "the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble". I still say, "No".

Everybody else says yes. Even without Nevada's cite, we all still can consider it a try, unless you still want to be "that guy."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Everybody else says yes. Even without Nevada's cite, we all still can consider it a try, unless you still want to be "that guy."

OK. Let's play. I won't wait for Jurassic Referee's permission. It's my baseball.

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane.

Please note that no decisions regarding a pass, or try, are needed in this hypothetical play. It says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try. Period.

Ruling? Citation please? Just for kicks, lets assume that it's a test question, needing a "rulebook answer". Here's a cheat sheet: NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Here's the 60 Seconds On Officiating website take: "Throwing the ball and hitting the backboard of the team in possession is always considered a try for goal. The tossing player may compete to recover the ball, and if they do, they have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble. Note that the 60 Seconds On Officiating website is a partner of IAABO. I don't know what their relationship is with NFHS.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

OK. Let's play. I won't wait for Jurassic Referee's permission. It's my baseball.

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane.

Please note that no decisions regarding a pass, or try, are needed in this hypothetical play. It says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try. Period.

Ruling? Citation please? Just for kicks, lets assume that it's a test question, needing a "rulebook answer". Here's a cheat sheet: NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Here's the 60 Seconds On Officiating website take: "Throwing the ball and hitting the backboard of the team in possession is always considered a try for goal. The tossing player may compete to recover the ball, and if they do, they have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble. Note that the 60 Seconds On Officiating website is a partner of IAABO. I don't know what their relationship is with NFHS.

Billy, Nevada gave us the cite: 9.5.

As jar says, and as I've pointed out, without the case you could rule it a non-try and thus a violation, but you'd be the only one doing it.

However, with the case play, you don't even have that option.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

OK. Let's play. I won't wait for Jurassic Referee's permission. It's my baseball.

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane.

Please note that no decisions regarding a pass, or try, are needed in this hypothetical play. It says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try. Period.

Ruling? Citation please? Just for kicks, lets assume that it's a test question, needing a "rulebook answer". Here's a cheat sheet: NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Here's the 60 Seconds On Officiating website take: "Throwing the ball and hitting the backboard of the team in possession is always considered a try for goal. The tossing player may compete to recover the ball, and if they do, they have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble. Note that the 60 Seconds On Officiating website is a partner of IAABO. I don't know what their relationship is with NFHS.

Stop thinking so much.

It's legal, and the player who recovers the ball has all the priveleges of anyone else who "recovers" a loose ball.

[just another ref]

In Billy's defense, Nevada's case play still leaves some questions unanswered. It says that the other two instances are violations because they constitute another dribble. So all we know for certain based on this case play is that throwing against one's own backboard is not a dribble. The fact that the word "equipment" is in quotes means what? Does this throw and catch wipe the slate clean for that player or is it the same as the player throwing the ball up, bouncing it off his own head (also part of his "equipment") and catching it again?

This case play alone tells us very little, as far as I can see.

If the following sentence appeared somewhere in the books it would be helpful.

Any thrown ball which strikes the ring or backboard of the throwing team without being first touched by a teammate shall be treated as a try, regardless of apparent intent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In Billy's defense, Nevada's case play still leaves some questions unanswered. It says that the other two instances are violations because they constitute another dribble. So all we know for certain based on this case play is that throwing against one's own backboard is not a dribble. The fact that the word "equipment" is in quotes means what? Does this throw and catch wipe the slate clean for that player or is it the same as the player throwing the ball up, bouncing it off his own head (also part of his "equipment") and catching it again?

This case play alone tells us very little, as far as I can see.

If the following sentence appeared somewhere in the books it would be helpful.

Any thrown ball which strikes the ring or backboard of the throwing team without being first touched by a teammate shall be treated as a try, regardless of apparent intent.

Yes, there's somewhat conflicting language in case book play in 4.15.4SitC(c) as in..."once the ball is released on the try...... As stated already many, many times on several different forums, NOTHING changes the FACT that the universal and accepted practice is to ALWAYS rule a ball thrown by someone against their own backboard to ALWAYS be a try. Every single time! No exceptions!

KISS! Otherwise...paralysis through freaking analysis. Always listen to Bob and everybody stop thinking so damn much.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, there's somewhat conflicting language in case book play in 4.15.4SitC(c) as in..."once the ball is released on the try......

That particular language is a relatively recent addition to the case. I can't remember if something else changed when they added it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, there's somewhat conflicting language in case book play in 4.15.4SitC(c) as in, "once the ball is released on the try.

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.