Closely Guarded Post Player

[Fritz]

need some help in a debate I am having with a regular partner of mine. Ball goes into a post player who has his back to the basket and is dribbling trying to decide what move to make and how the defender is reacting. Does the closely guarded count apply?

I say no because the rule book talks about the count ending once the dribbler gets his head/shoulders past the defender - implying that closely guarded occurs when opponents are facing each other. And I have never seen a visible count done in this situation by anyone I have watched or worked with.

My "debater" says that isn't true as the book never says they have to face each other.

So, experts, what is the correct application?

[mbyron]

Your "debater" has the rule right.

[Adam]

Imagine the same positioning, only 19 feet from the basket. Do you have a count?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I say no because the rule book talks about the count ending once the dribbler gets his head/shoulders past the defender - implying that closely guarded occurs when opponents are facing each other.

They mean when the offensive player drives past the defender.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Fritz

need some help in a debate I am having with a regular partner of mine. Ball goes into a post player who has his back to the basket and is dribbling trying to decide what move to make and how the defender is reacting. Does the closely guarded count apply?

Even the NBA has a closely guarded count in this situation.

[M&M Guy]

Perhaps part of the confusion lies with the fact that, according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations, even though the players are entirely within the L's area of coverage. And, since no one is counting, there would never be a 5-second call made by the L.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Perhaps part of the confusion lies with the fact that, according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations,

Even in 2-whistle??? The Trail is supposed to watch all the off-ball stuff AND get the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Even in 2-whistle??? The Trail is supposed to watch all the off-ball stuff AND get the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary?

That is what I've been told, many times, by many different officials, including clinician-certified State Final officials.

I happen to disagree with the mechanic. I have asked these officials, many times, why it is necessary to have 2 sets of eyes on-ball (L, and the C or T with the count), but no one can tell me why it's acceptable in this instance.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That is what I've been told, many times, by many different officials, including clinician-certified State Final officials.

I happen to disagree with the mechanic. I have asked these officials, many times, why it is necessary to have 2 sets of eyes on-ball (L, and the C or T with the count), but no one can tell me why it's acceptable in this instance.

The NFHS manual very clearly says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. See page 61, section 3.3.2 B. This includes the lead official.

If you have your own manual that says otherwise, fine. Most time when someone says this, they either work NCAAM or just mirror what they see in NCAAM games on TV.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations, even though the players are entirely within the L's area of coverage.

Where is this documented?

[rlarry]

I've been wrong before, but the only count by anyone that isn't visible is the 3 second count

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Where is this documented?

I believe the issue was how the Fed. Mechanics Manual was written. I don't have it in front of me, but I think somewhere in there it says the T and/or C are responsible for the 5-second closely-guarded counts, which many have taken to imply the L would then never have that count.

Again, I don't agree with that philosophy, but when in Rome...

[Fritz]

I agree that the strict language of the rule would indicate that the CG count should apply, but like the earlier comments, I have never seen anyone give a visible count in that instance. And though it isn't like the post player holds the ball or dribbles that long without doing something, it does happen. With no count begin given during this, it would be interesting to suddenly come up calling the violation and have to explain why you weren't signalling.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Even the NBA has a closely guarded count in this situation.

Just an FYI, a back-to-basket count only applies when a player dribbling the ball has his back or side to the basket below the free throw line extended and ends when the dribble is picked up, ball is deflected by the defense, or the player faces the basket/dribbles above the free throw line extended. So it's not exactly like the NFHS/NCAA-M closely guarded rule.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Just an FYI, a back-to-basket count only applies when a player dribbling the ball has his back or side to the basket below the free throw line extended

And that's exactly why I said that the NBA has a 5-second count "in this situation". From the original post:

Ball goes into a post player who has his back to the basket and is dribbling trying to decide what move to make