Closely Guarded Post Player

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Fritz

need some help in a debate I am having with a regular partner of mine. Ball goes into a post player who has his back to the basket and is dribbling trying to decide what move to make and how the defender is reacting. Does the closely guarded count apply?

Even the NBA has a closely guarded count in this situation.

[M&M Guy]

Perhaps part of the confusion lies with the fact that, according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations, even though the players are entirely within the L's area of coverage. And, since no one is counting, there would never be a 5-second call made by the L.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Perhaps part of the confusion lies with the fact that, according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations,

Even in 2-whistle??? The Trail is supposed to watch all the off-ball stuff AND get the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Even in 2-whistle??? The Trail is supposed to watch all the off-ball stuff AND get the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary?

That is what I've been told, many times, by many different officials, including clinician-certified State Final officials.

I happen to disagree with the mechanic. I have asked these officials, many times, why it is necessary to have 2 sets of eyes on-ball (L, and the C or T with the count), but no one can tell me why it's acceptable in this instance.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That is what I've been told, many times, by many different officials, including clinician-certified State Final officials.

I happen to disagree with the mechanic. I have asked these officials, many times, why it is necessary to have 2 sets of eyes on-ball (L, and the C or T with the count), but no one can tell me why it's acceptable in this instance.

The NFHS manual very clearly says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. See page 61, section 3.3.2 B. This includes the lead official.

If you have your own manual that says otherwise, fine. Most time when someone says this, they either work NCAAM or just mirror what they see in NCAAM games on TV.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The NFHS manual very clearly says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. See page 61, section 3.3.2 B. This includes the lead official.

If you have your own manual that says otherwise, fine. Most time when someone says this, they either work NCAAM or just mirror what they see in NCAAM games on TV.

Well, M&M does work in Illinois; that could be a major factor here.

[APG]

Didn't NFHS have a POE in the recent past stating the lead should have a visible closely guarded count when applicablie? How's a head coach suppose to know that an official has a count and how far along in the count before a violation?

As far as the OP's post goes, most definitely the closely guarded count does apply here. I've never gotten to five but had some counts get close.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, M&M does work in Illinois; that could be a major factor here.

Well, if I find that IL manual, I know where I'll put it...

Oh, and shut up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The NFHS manual very clearly says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. See page 61, section 3.3.2 B. This includes the lead official.

If you have your own manual that says otherwise, fine. Most time when someone says this, they either work NCAAM or just mirror what they see in NCAAM games on TV.

Ok, cool - maybe this is a change from past manuals. I know I have been told in the past, at several different HS camps, by several different higher-level officials, that the L never has a 5-sec. count. I may have to ask these same officials if they've changed their thinking, or if they are simply stubborn. Like a few people on here...

I know in NCAA-W the L most definitely is responsible for the 5-sec. count. It makes the most sense, given the responses above - if there are 2 (or 3?!?) sets of eyes on the ball, who has the rest of the players?

My purpose in pointing this out was in reference to the OP - there may be other officials that carry that same idea, and that may be why Fritz had not noticed the L count before.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations, even though the players are entirely within the L's area of coverage.

Where is this documented?

[rlarry]

I've been wrong before, but the only count by anyone that isn't visible is the 3 second count

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Where is this documented?

I believe the issue was how the Fed. Mechanics Manual was written. I don't have it in front of me, but I think somewhere in there it says the T and/or C are responsible for the 5-second closely-guarded counts, which many have taken to imply the L would then never have that count.

Again, I don't agree with that philosophy, but when in Rome...

[Fritz]

I agree that the strict language of the rule would indicate that the CG count should apply, but like the earlier comments, I have never seen anyone give a visible count in that instance. And though it isn't like the post player holds the ball or dribbles that long without doing something, it does happen. With no count begin given during this, it would be interesting to suddenly come up calling the violation and have to explain why you weren't signalling.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I agree that the strict language of the rule would indicate that the CG count should apply, but like the earlier comments, I have never seen anyone give a visible count in that instance. And though it isn't like the post player holds the ball or dribbles that long without doing something, it does happen. With no count begin given during this, it would be interesting to suddenly come up calling the violation and have to explain why you weren't signalling.

This reasoning is much different than your OP.

[ODJ]

I would think the C would have a count, but since most often this post-up is in the lane, 3 secs. come before 5.