Closely Guarded???

[OK Ref]

in FC on close guarded situations, is the player in control allowed 4 secs. to hold the ball, 4 secs. to dribble and then pick the ball up from the dribble for 4 secs., for total of 12 seconds in control of the ball?

I checked the rules and case books, and know what they say about close guarded situations, but it was brought to my attention in a game, the player could have up to 12 seconds of possession of the ball. Responses please....

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by OK Ref
in FC on close guarded situations, is the player in control allowed 4 secs. to hold the ball, 4 secs. to dribble and then pick the ball up from the dribble for 4 secs., for total of 12 seconds in control of the ball?

I checked the rules and case books, and know what they say about close guarded situations, but it was brought to my attention in a game, the player could have up to 12 seconds of possession of the ball. Responses please....

Technically, they get 4.9 seconds holding, 4.9 seconds dribbling and another 4.9 seconds holding if they want, for a total of 14.7 seconds.

I still don't know why you reward a team with a taking a possession away from their opponents and giving it to them just because one of their players happens to be standing within six feet of the ball handler for five seconds.

Seems to me the reward far exceeds the deed.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I still don't know why you reward a team with a taking a possession away from their opponents and giving it to them just because one of their players happens to be standing within six feet of the ball handler for five seconds.

It's not to "reward the defense". It's to penalize the offense for not playing team basketball. The whole point of the rule is not to prevent delay. The point of the rule is to prevent one player from taking 30 seconds while he tries every move in his repetoire. It gets the rest of the team involved on offense. Otherwise, you get these ridiculous -- and boring! -- NBA-type possessions, where one guy just dribbles in backwards for 24 seconds, trying to find an opening. (Of course, you can't do that anymore, even in the NBA. Five second count with "back to the basket".)

Chuck

[hawkk]

It does reward good defense. The player with the ball should know he has 5 seconds. If the defenders prevent him from escaping and limit his ability to pass, they've played good defense. It's a good rule. If memory serves, however, this used to be an offensive player who was considered to be tied up, resulting in a jump ball. Sometime ago (mid 80's?) the rule was changed to a turnover. I wouldn't mind seeing a jump ball, but the AP arrow takes away that option. (Have I ever said that I HATE the AP rule . . ..)

One more thought: The rule is almost essential in the absence of a shot clock. An offensive player could just stand with the ball for as long as he wanted, and all the defense could do would be try to hack at the ball. That would be an exciting game . . . . I think the NBAs relatively short shot clock is part of why the 5 second clock was not part of their rules.

[Edited by hawkk on Dec 18th, 2002 at 08:34 AM]

[Nevadaref]

I believe that there were a couple of years in which the NCAA men dropped the 5 second violation while dribbling. I know for sure that one of those years was the 1995-1996 season. I watched the Big East Final at MSG between Georgetown and Connecticut. When Georgetown had a lead with about 5 minutes to play they would give the ball to Iverson near the division line. He would dribble out the shot clock and then try to score in the last couple of seconds. It was rather boring to watch him go 1 on 5. However, there was some justice as he missed almost every shot down the stretch and UConn rode Ray Allen's hot shooting to overcome an 11 point deficit to win by 1.
The concept of team basketball was totally ruined.

[CYO Butch]

I seem to recall when the rule did not apply if the ball handler was advancing toward the basket. It seems to me that that was a good rule.

And I agree with hawkk - get rid of the AP rule and bring back the jump ball. That really did reward a team for hustling!

[Hawks Coach]

I like the AP arrow specifically BECAUSE it rewards a team for hustling. If my team is forcing every held ball, then I get half a turnover for a held ball (and we track it that way on stats - 1/2 a steal when we do it, 1/2 a turnover when we get tied up). With the AP system, I know that I am getting some benefit from what my team does, and the benefit seems appropriate. We didn't get a clean steal, so we get half a turnover for tying somebody up.

With the jump ball, the taller player is winning most of the jumps. We reward the character trait of height, and the singular athletic ability to jump when we do jump balls. I don't know that this favors me or the other team on any given night. But I do know with a jump ball, we can potentially force all the held balls and yet never get a possession out of it (if the other team wins all the jumps). I don't like that idea. I know with the AP, I get half of them guaranteed, and it seems about right.

[theboys]

Hey, Hawks Coach, I have a question (with apologies to the refs). We also track similar stats. Do you reward a player who ties up an opponent with 1/2 steal, or is it just listed under the team totals? Do you reward a player who draws a charge "a steal"? We consider that a "forced turnover", and keep it as a separate category. If we force a 5-second inbounds violation, or a 10-second backcourt, we consider that a team forced turnover.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by HawksCoach
If my team is forcing every held ball, then I get half a turnover for a held ball (and we track it that way on stats - 1/2 a steal when we do it, 1/2 a turnover when we get tied up). We didn't get a clean steal, so we get half a turnover for tying somebody up.
__________________________________________________

Originally posted by theboys
Do you reward a player who ties up an opponent with 1/2 steal, or is it just listed under the team totals? Do you reward a player who draws a charge "a steal"? If we force a 5-second inbounds violation, or a 10-second backcourt, we consider that a team forced turnover.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, HEY!!! Don't you guys have email or something for these. . .these. . . "coaching" issues?

I'm just kidding, obviously I will gladly wade through 2 posts about stats to read the rest of what you guys post. Always enjoy having you guys here. Just struck my funny bone that this turned into the CoachesForum for a few minutes.

Chuck

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by theboys
Hey, Hawks Coach, I have a question (with apologies to the refs). We also track similar stats. Do you reward a player who ties up an opponent with 1/2 steal, or is it just listed under the team totals? Do you reward a player who draws a charge "a steal"? We consider that a "forced turnover", and keep it as a separate category. If we force a 5-second inbounds violation, or a 10-second backcourt, we consider that a team forced turnover.

Great question. We also use the forced turnover stat - went to it last year. It allows us to differentiate between the clean steal and all the other stuff. We will also split a forced turnover if we feel that 2 players contributed. 10 seconds is a tough one, but you don't get more than 1-2 per game.