Blarge administration

[tref]

Be cognizant of your partners whistle(s)... put a fist up... make eye contact... give no prelims... come together if needed... decide what occured first.

Sounds quite simple! I think if 1 of the 2 calling officials follow the proper procedures then its tough to have a blarge.

Had a play the other night, I'm C & the L is rotating strong-side, unfortunately on an immediate drive to the bucket from my PCA
Double whistle, partner immediately punches as I have a fist up. Of course I had a block as I had the play SDF in my PCA. I just dropped my fist & we discussed it later.
Result: Perhaps an ICC but NO blarge.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Be cognizant of your partners whistle(s)... put a fist up... make eye contact... give no prelims... come together if needed... decide what occured first.

Sounds quite simple! I think if 1 of the 2 calling officials follow the proper procedures then its tough to have a blarge.

....

And hope that the official not following the proper mechanic has the right call

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by NCAAREF

Well my question has always been....how can you have a blarge? If the defender has position it is a charge...if the defender did not have postion it is a block. How can it be both? I agree that you should defer to whosever primary it was but you know what should realy happen.....get together...decide on one or the other...and move on. Blarge....are you kidding me? Why not call it a Chock??????

Well, I saw the "blarge" call last year made by some very experienced and capable NCAA D1 officials, including one who worked the Final Four.

How come you know more than them and you're so much smarter than them, Mr. NCAAREF? And btw, are there any other very plainly written rules that you think D1 Mens and NFHS officials shouldn't be calling ? Just wondering.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Had a play the other night, I'm C & the L is rotating strong-side, unfortunately on an immediate drive to the bucket from my PCA
Double whistle, partner immediately punches as I have a fist up. Of course I had a block as I had the play SDF in my PCA. I just dropped my fist & we discussed it later.
Result: Perhaps an ICC but NO blarge.

Soooooo.....

Even though you're 100% sure that you had the call correct and you're also sure that it WAS your call also , you feel that the proper way to handle the situation is to just go ahead and let your partner make (what to you) was the WRONG call.

Sorry, I can't agree with that philosophy. You HAD a "blarge" and you handled it wrong, by rule(unless you were playing under NCAA Womens rules). Even then, you should have discussed the final call with your parner immediately before taking it to the bench.

The "blarge" procedure was written for a reason. Sure, if everything goes well you shouldn't have one. But officiating isn't a perfect world. It's usually not a bad idea just to follow the rules of the game that you're officiating, instead of making up your own.

JMO.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sorry, I can't agree with that philosophy. You HAD a "blarge" and you handled it wrong, by rule(unless you were playing under NCAA Womens rules). Even then, you should have discussed the final call with your parner immediately before taking it to the bench.

The "blarge" procedure was written for a reason. Sure, if everything goes well you shouldn't have one. But officiating isn't a perfect world. It's usually not a bad idea just to follow the rules of the game that you're officiating, instead of making up your own.

JMO.

How did we have a blarge if I never showed?? Maybe you should have asked the that question (in bold) prior to persecuting me, Almight 1

How can you discuss something when they punch & fly to the table? Obviously, my partner wasn't aware I had a whistle.
Oh yeah, we take calls to the table round here

I could've swore I followed the rules by putting a fist up, my partner went right to the punch mechanic & well, that was that!!

Are you suggesting that I chase him down to complicate the situation? "Hey I had a block, you showed p/c already, but I'm calling a block as well!"
I dont think so...

[NCAAREF]

I'm not saying that I think I know more then you or other D1 officials......I follow the rules they way they are written but I don't have to agree with them. My point is and please expound and explain to me how this can be......how can you have a charge and a block at the same time? It is by the rules impossible yet a rule existe to address just that? How can a defender be at a spot yet not be at a spot? How can a ball handler beat a defender to a spot yet not beat a defender to a spot? In my humble opinion the blarge is there to bail out officials because as you seem to believe a D1 officail can't be wrong. Hmmm...I feel so much better about myself now.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by NCAAREF

I'm not saying that I think I know more then you or other D1 officials......I follow the rules they way they are written but I don't have to agree with them. My point is and please expound and explain to me how this can be......how can you have a charge and a block at the same time? It is by the rules impossible yet a rule existe to address just that? How can a defender be at a spot yet not be at a spot? How can a ball handler beat a defender to a spot yet not beat a defender to a spot? In my humble opinion the blarge is there to bail out officials because as you seem to believe a D1 officail can't be wrong. Hmmm...I feel so much better about myself now.

We've had this discussion many times; you might try a search to find them.

I don't anyone really agrees that both fouls can actually happen at the same time. You're correct that is there no rule basis for it. It's just that when the two officials do not follow the proper mechanics, and both come out with different preliminary signals on that play, the NFHS and NCAA-M rules committees both decided that in order to make it look like one official isn't "overruling" another, both fouls will have to be reported. It's a way to diffuse a potentially difficult situation by simply charging both fouls, rather than trying to address which call was right, and why you called it against one but taking away the other.

Of course, the easy way to prevent this from ever happening is to follow the correct mechanics and allow the official whose call it is to be the only one to give a preliminary signal and report it to the table.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by NCAAREF

My point is and please expound and explain to me how this can be......how can you have a charge and a block at the same time? It is by the rules impossible yet a rule exists to address just that? How can a defender be at a spot yet not be at a spot? How can a ball handler beat a defender to a spot yet not beat a defender to a spot? In my humble opinion the blarge is there to bail out officials because as you seem to believe a D1 officail can't be wrong.

I got an idea, Mr. NCAAREF. Why don't you ask John Adams those questions? He's in charge of the NCAA Mens ruleset, not me. And that particular ruleset sureashell allows for a "blarge". Please share his response to those questions with us, if it's not too much trouble.

And howinthehell can you say that it is by rule impossible when there IS a rule saying that it sureashell is possible. When did they take "double personal foul" definition out of the NCAA rulebook? And there also is also no rule that I'm aware of that does say it's impossible. Can you cite the rules that will back up that assertation?

Btw, are you an NCAA ref at the D1 level? Just wondering.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

How did we have a blarge if I never showed?? Maybe you should have asked the that question (in bold) prior to persecuting me, Almight 1

How can you discuss something when they punch & fly to the table? Obviously, my partner wasn't aware I had a whistle.
Oh yeah, we take calls to the table round here

I could've swore I followed the rules by putting a fist up, my partner went right to the punch mechanic & well, that was that!!

Are you suggesting that I chase him down to complicate the situation? "Hey I had a block, you showed p/c already, but I'm calling a block as well!"
I dont think so...

You showed a foul signal. You NEVER went to your parner though to make sure that your foul call was the same as his foul call. Au contraire, you freely admit that you thought that your partner screwed-up the call, yet you sat back and did absolutely nothing about it.

You let him report a foul that you thought was wrong. A foul that you also blew your whistle on, signalled a foul and had the opposite call. And you admitted all that too.

If you think that's the right way to handle those situations, well carry on carrying on, Ch!town.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You showed a foul signal. You NEVER went to your parner though to make sure that your foul call was the same as his foul call. Au contraire, you freely admit that you thought that your partner screwed-up the call, yet you sat back and did absolutely nothing about it.

You let him report a foul that you thought was wrong. A foul that you also blew your whistle on, signalled a foul and had the opposite call. And you admitted all that too.

If you think that's the right way to handle those situations, well carry on carrying on, Ch!town.

Yellowball forum member and skeptic on this topic, but I thought I had repeatedly read that this is generally what everyone hear preaches. Can someone clarify for me:

I thought the "correct" way was: Both officials come up with a foul but neither divulges their call. They look at each other and one decides to take the call.
A blarge occurs when both officials blow that responsibility by immediately signaling what they have.

If one official blows it and the other doesn't, then it doesn't seem much different from them looking at each other and yielding to the one who didn't blow it.

But I surely misunderstand and can be set straigh.
________
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[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The "blarge" procedure was written for a reason.

What is the reason?

seriously

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is the reason?

seriously

Seriously, because the rulesmakers needed to cover a situation that actually happens in real life, no matter what the people who say that's supposedly impossible might think. Yes, under ideal conditions and correct mechanics, a blarge shouldn't happen. But unfortunately they do happen on occasion, and they happens to the best of us. And under NCAA Mens and NHHS rules, the correct call on a blarge is a double foul. Whether one of the fouls was wrong or not is moot as far as we're concerned.

JAR, my point is that (1) we don't write the rules, and (2) we don't get to pick and choose what rules we can call or ignore by personal like or dislike either. We, as officials, have to live with what we're given. And what we're given under NCAA Mens & FED rules is that if we have conflicting calls made in a block/charge situation, then both calls will stand. That's the way that The Powers To Be want it called. Until that's changed, so be it.

[tref]

Jurassic Referee, in the same sitch I had... what would YOU have done??

Keep in mind, my partner punched & reported p/c (from the spot) nobody is going to the reporting area in the fall, especially when team fouls are only being recorded. No long switches, so he administered the subsequent throw-in quickly. I have to get from old C to new L in a up & down affair.
What should I have done?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by NCAAREF

I'm not saying that I think I know more then you or other D1 officials......I follow the rules they way they are written but I don't have to agree with them. My point is and please expound and explain to me how this can be......how can you have a charge and a block at the same time? It is by the rules impossible yet a rule existe to address just that? How can a defender be at a spot yet not be at a spot? How can a ball handler beat a defender to a spot yet not beat a defender to a spot? In my humble opinion the blarge is there to bail out officials because as you seem to believe a D1 officail can't be wrong. Hmmm...I feel so much better about myself now.

Because a foul is only a foul if it is called based on the OPINION of the official(s). Given that there are up to three possible opinions and that no one official may overrule the judgement of another, it becomes a block and a charge at the same time if more than one expresses their opinion....by rule.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You showed a foul signal. You NEVER went to your parner though to make sure that your foul call was the same as his foul call. Au contraire, you freely admit that you thought that your partner screwed-up the call, yet you sat back and did absolutely nothing about it.

You let him report a foul that you thought was wrong. A foul that you also blew your whistle on, signalled a foul and had the opposite call. And you admitted all that too.

If you think that's the right way to handle those situations, well carry on carrying on, Ch!town.

I read his post to say he blew the whistle but didn't signal the foul yet. If not, he handled it right, even if he was planning to signal the opposite.