Blarge administration

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In my experience the conversation does not take that long in most cases. Or does not need that much explanation.

Peace

That long? That's a 1.5 second conversation...M&M timed it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That long? That's a 1.5 second conversation...M&M timed it.

With arm swings?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

No...I don't think I have ever been in a double-whistle situation where the discussion was only "Hey, it happened inside the imaginary box on the floor that delineates my primary, not yours."

The discussions have always been along the lines of: "What have you got?" "I've got #42 sliding in under the shooter after she was airborne." "Oh, ok. You take it then."

Well, count me as misunderstanding the womens's mechanic then. I was under the understanding that the blarge situation was to be resolved by defering to the official who had primary coverage.

While that seems to not be they was it is implemented, how is it actually written?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Well, count me as misunderstanding the womens's mechanic then. I was under the understanding that the blarge situation was to be resolved by defering to the official who had primary coverage.

While that seems to not be they was it is implemented, how is it actually written?

That is the way it is written...but primary coverage only has so much to do with the area on the floor. And that is where you are reading too much into it.Or maybe not reading enough...the floor coverage stuff in the NCAA-W game is much more "fluid" than in the NCAA-M game where it is more "static".

I'm having trouble thinking of a better way to put it.

[doubleringer]

I was involved in a blarge at a women's summer camp. We were complimented on the fact that we handled it correctly. I think it is a good example of how the NCAA Women's side wants it called. We were in transition. I was going to L, T didn't get in to a great position, and C had a decent look at the play. C and L had a double whistle, followed by opposing mechanics (yeah, we should have held, but that doesn't always happen). We got together right away, my C said, "you're primary", and I took my blocking foul to the table.

I wasn't happy about having a blarge in a camp situation, but I think it actually helped us out in front of the evaluators that we handled it like we are supposed to according to the women's manual.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That is the way it is written...but primary coverage only has so much to do with the area on the floor. And that is where you are reading too much into it.Or maybe not reading enough...the floor coverage stuff in the NCAA-W game is much more "fluid" than in the NCAA-M game where it is more "static".

I'm having trouble thinking of a better way to put it.

I'm hearing two conflicting things in this thread.

Is it determined by primaries or not (regardless of how you define the primary)? Or do you discuss of the play itself and what each person saw?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'm hearing two conflicting things in this thread.

Is it determined by primaries or not (regardless of how you define the primary)? Or do you discuss of the play itself and what each person saw?

It IS determined by primaries...but primary is NOT just the area on the floor. It's who is involved, where they came from, etc., etc. Was it a secondary defender who stepped in there? If so, where did that defender come from and who had them?

I know you know all that. So just reading the word "primary" as only the specific area on the floor is not the correct mechanic.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'm hearing two conflicting things in this thread.

Is it determined by primaries or not (regardless of how you define the primary)? Or do you discuss of the play itself and what each person saw?

I would like for someone to actually quote how it is written. I'm assuming its in the CCA Manual for NCAA-W.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would like for someone to actually quote how it is written. I'm assuming its in the CCA Manual for NCAA-W.

If both a block and a charge are signalled (emphasis added) on the floor simultaneously, the officials shall get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play originate in his/her primary. It is important to slow down, have eye contact with partners and not give a preliminary signal when more than one whistle may be involved.

(2009-2010 3.4.7D)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If both a block and a charge are signaled (emphasis added) on the floor simultaneously, the officials shall get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play originate in his/her primary. It is important to slow down, have eye contact with partners and not give a preliminary signal when more than one whistle may be involved.

(2009-2010 3.4.7D)

So, the call is, as I've said all along, predetermined based on who has primary coverage (whether it is based on location, origination, secondary defender, etc.). The only discussion is about who had coverage (or at least who should have had coverage) and, even if they were completely wrong, their call stands. The discussion is NOT about who actually saw what but who should have seen what. That is no guarantee that the call will be the correct one. Therefore, I stand by my earlier assertion that the NCAA-W mechanic will still lead to the worst case of being 200% wrong some of the time by getting it completely backwards due to defaulting to the primary official.

For anyone that is actually discussing what each person saw (defender was late, stuck out the knee, etc.), they're not actually following the mechanic but are doing their own thing. Such a thing is not necessarily a bad idea but it is not the defined mechanic.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For anyone that is actually discussing what each person saw (defender was late, stuck out the knee, etc.), they're not actually following the mechanic but are doing their own thing. Such a thing is not necessarily a bad idea but it is not the defined mechanic.

I guess that's one assumption you can make. The other way to look at it is to realize that we are given definite directives by the supervisors of the conferences we work in, and by the NCAA themselves. I can only speak for supervisors that I have worked for, but the directives they gave us are exactly what I have been explaining to you. If that's "doing things my own way," so be it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I guess that's one assumption you can make. The other way to look at it is to realize that we are given definite directives by the supervisors of the conferences we work in, and by the NCAA themselves. I can only speak for supervisors that I have worked for, but the directives they gave us are exactly what I have been explaining to you. If that's "doing things my own way," so be it.

I don't disagree with that approach at all if that is what supervisors want...probably a pretty good approch. But, that is NOT the official NCAA-W mechanic. The claim in this discussion was the the official NCAA-W mechanic, whick is based on primary coverage, was superior. It isn't universally better. The variations that supervisors are making on it probably are.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I guess that's one assumption you can make. The other way to look at it is to realize that we are given definite directives by the supervisors of the conferences we work in, and by the NCAA themselves. I can only speak for supervisors that I have worked for, but the directives they gave us are exactly what I have been explaining to you. If that's "doing things my own way," so be it.

From the NCAA casebook, A.R. 172

A1 drives to the basket and:
(1) The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
(2) The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
(Men) …
(Women) In (1) and (2), when the officials signal simultaneously, they shall get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first. Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer and the appropriate penalty is assessed.

I read this precisely as you and your supervisors read it: try and determine the real action in order not to penalize the innocent.

However, a blarge is still and will ever be an officiating mistake. NCAA-W rules try to avoid charging an inexistent foul, while the other rule sets don't; in some cases the goal may not be reached, of course, but the fault is on the officials who made a mistake by signalling two different fouls on one and the same action.

Ciao

[NCAAREF]

Well my question has always been....how can you have a blarge? If the defender has position it is a charge...if the defender did not have postion it is a block. How can it be both? I agree that you should defer to whosever primary it was but you know what should realy happen.....get together...decide on one or the other...and move on. Blarge....are you kidding me? Why not call it a Chock??????

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by NCAAREF

Well my question has always been....how can you have a blarge? If the defender has position it is a charge...if the defender did not have postion it is a block. How can it be both? I agree that you should defer to whosever primary it was but you know what should realy happen.....get together...decide on one or the other...and move on. Blarge....are you kidding me? Why not call it a Chock??????

The term 'blarge' refers to the calls made by the officials more than what happened on the court.