Blarge administration

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JAR, my point is that (1) we don't write the rules, and (2) we don't get to pick and choose what rules we can call or ignore by personal like or dislike either.

I have always been with you on this part. But until some written reference to the signal being a part of what makes or breaks this play, I personally will never look at it that way.

For the record, the only time this ever happened to me, I didn't even know it until afterward. I had the block. My partner saw me and quickly deferred. He dropped his signal and switched. I didn't even know he had blown his whistle. The coach who caught the short end said, "What did y'all do, flip a coin?" But he was actually smiling. Maybe that means we got it right.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JAR, my point is that (1) we don't write the rules, and (2) we don't get to pick and choose what rules we can call or ignore by personal like or dislike either. We, as officials, have to live with what we're given. And what we're given under NCAA Mens & FED rules is that if we have conflicting calls made in a block/charge situation, then both calls will stand. That's the way that The Powers To Be want it called. Until that's changed, so be it.

Let's try a "real case". You blow your whistle for a charge and your partner whistles, too; no one has given a preliminary signal, so you don't know what was your partner's call, but you realize that your partner probably had a clearer view of the play. Are you telling us that you're going for your call anyway, because that's the rule?

Ciao

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

Let's try a "real case". You blow your whistle for a charge and your partner whistles, too; no one has given a preliminary signal, so you don't know what was your partner's call, but you realize that your partner probably had a clearer view of the play. Are you telling us that you're going for your call anyway, because that's the rule?

If your call was that it was a charge, then you have to go to your partner to see what his call was. If he agrees it's a charge, you report it. If he thinks it was a block instead, you have to report both fouls. If you're not sure that it really was a charge, you shouldn't have blown your whistle in the first place. The rule of thumb at any level is never to make a call unless you are sure of that call. If you're not sure of your charge call in your "real case" above, then call your whistle an inadvertant whistle and defer to your partner.

A "clearer view" has got nothing to do with the final result either, same as knowing whose primary it came from too. What matters is that you both blew your whistle for a foul on the same play. Whether one of you shouldn't have blown their whistle is now moot because both of you actually DID blow their whistle. You and your partner also both signalled fouls by blowing your whistle and raising an arm with a closed fist(using proper mechanics), even though neither actually signalled the nature of the foul. If you now have conflicting foul calls, you have a "blarge" and have to report both the charge and the block under NCAA Mens and NFHS rules.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If your call was that it was a charge, then you have to go to your partner to see what his call was. If he agrees it's a charge, you report it. If he thinks it was a block instead, you have to report both fouls. If you're not sure that it really was a charge, you shouldn't have blown your whistle in the first place. The rule of thumb at any level is never to make a call unless you are sure of that call. If you're not sure of your charge call in your "real case" above, then call your whistle an inadvertant whistle and defer to your partner.

So do have to report both or not?

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So do have to report both or not?

I think that's JR's way of saying the same thing as I, while pretending to stick to the written rules.

Ciao

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

I think that's JR's way of saying the same thing as I, while pretending to stick to the written rules.

Nope, that's JR's way of saying that if you make a foul call on the floor that you thought was correct, and you then fail to follow through with your call just because your partner might have made a simultaneous but opposite foul call, you shouldn't be out on the court in the first place. You don't have the balls to be a GOOD sports official

Is that clear enough?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you make a foul call on the floor that you thought was correct, and you then fail to follow through with your call just because your partner might have made a simultaneous but opposite foul call, you shouldn't be out on the court in the first place.

That may be true by the book, and according to the way you do things in your little corner of Hell, but in my little corner of Connecticut, we are taught to give the call to the official that the play is moving toward (some boards and associations may prefer that the officials who had the primary where the play started take the call).

Jurassic Referee: If we, in our little corner of Connecticut, were to do it your way, the proper way according to the rules, we would really piss off our partners, and you know what happens to officials who piss off their partners all the time? Your reputation suffers, your ratings, and rankings suffer, and nobody wants to work with your any more.

When in Rome ...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If your call was that it was a charge, then you have to go to your partner to see what his call was. If he agrees it's a charge, you report it. If he thinks it was a block instead, you have to report both fouls. If you're not sure that it really was a charge, you shouldn't have blown your whistle in the first place. The rule of thumb at any level is never to make a call unless you are sure of that call. If you're not sure of your charge call in your "real case" above, then call your whistle an inadvertant whistle and defer to your partner.

A "clearer view" has got nothing to do with the final result either, same as knowing whose primary it came from too. What matters is that you both blew your whistle for a foul on the same play. Whether one of you shouldn't have blown their whistle is now moot because both of you actually DID blow their whistle. You and your partner also both signalled fouls by blowing your whistle and raising an arm with a closed fist(using proper mechanics), even though neither actually signalled the nature of the foul. If you now have conflicting foul calls, you have a "blarge" and have to report both the charge and the block under NCAA Mens and NFHS rules.

I hope you are only talking about blarge situations, not a regular double whistle. There is no way I am going to the table with a foul that my partner(s) have agreed that we may not have the same exact thing, but we make a decision to give that call to one official or another. We call things because of our perspective which can be honestly different from someone because of our angle. That does not mean that the call we are personally making is correct or did not have something else happen first.

Peace

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, that's JR's way of saying that if you make a foul call on the floor that you thought was correct, and you then fail to follow through with your call just because your partner might have made a simultaneous but opposite foul call, you shouldn't be out on the court in the first place. You don't have the balls to be a GOOD sports official

Is that clear enough?

That's a bit rude, isn't it? It's not "having balls" or not. It's just being on the court and knowing that we are not perfect; that we can call something based on our view which can be nonoptimal. I call a contact which has to be called, be it a charge or a block, and the mechanics tells me to call it, but I realize that (1) it's a double coverage area, (2) my partner has a better perspective, and (3) my partner may have called it different from me: all I should do in order to respect the game is to leave the call to my partner. That's it: being a team and not two or three officials who happen to be on the court at the same time.

Ciao

[APG]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, that's JR's way of saying that if you make a foul call on the floor that you thought was correct, and you then fail to follow through with your call just because your partner might have made a simultaneous but opposite foul call, you shouldn't be out on the court in the first place. You don't have the balls to be a GOOD sports official

Is that clear enough?

Just want to understand JR...on a double whistle involving a block charge situation, two officials go up with a fist to signal a foul. Neither has given a preliminary signal as to whether it's a block or a charge. Through whatever method, the call is deferred to one official and he signals a block. In the other official's opinion, the play was a charge and would of be signaled as such without the double whistle/if the play was deferred to him.

Are you saying that you would still call a double foul in this situation? I can't imagine that is what you're saying, because what would be the point of following correct mechanics and holding your prelim to avoid the blarge?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If your call was that it was a charge, then you have to go to your partner to see what his call was. If he agrees it's a charge, you report it. If he thinks it was a block instead, you have to report both fouls. If you're not sure that it really was a charge, you shouldn't have blown your whistle in the first place. The rule of thumb at any level is never to make a call unless you are sure of that call. If you're not sure of your charge call in your "real case" above, then call your whistle an inadvertant whistle and defer to your partner.

A "clearer view" has got nothing to do with the final result either, same as knowing whose primary it came from too. What matters is that you both blew your whistle for a foul on the same play. Whether one of you shouldn't have blown their whistle is now moot because both of you actually DID blow their whistle. You and your partner also both signalled fouls by blowing your whistle and raising an arm with a closed fist(using proper mechanics), even though neither actually signalled the nature of the foul. If you now have conflicting foul calls, you have a "blarge" and have to report both the charge and the block under NCAA Mens and NFHS rules.

I disagree.

I thought we were all on the same page about what it meant to make opposite calls (except for the couple of people that insist that it is not a blarge until both officials report to the table).

Blowing the whistle and raising a fist is NOT the same as making the call. Until an official signals the type of foul, nothing has been called, yet. The whole point of going to the double foul is to cover the situation where the officials have indicated opposite calls...not just thought about opposite calls.

Done correctly, one official will realize that their partner should have the call and will give it up or will, knowing they saw something interesting, will tell their partner(s) that they're taking the call. No discussion, no need to know what they were going to call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Blowing the whistle and raising a fist is NOT the same as making the call. Until an official signals the type of foul, nothing has been called, yet.

Like you, I thought most were in agreement on this point. But, while the above is not an unreasonable way to approach the situation, it is not supported by rule in any way that I am aware.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Like you, I thought most were in agreement on this point. But, while the above is not an unreasonable way to approach the situation, it is not supported by rule in any way that I am aware.

Then we are playing with semantics. No one knows what you have until you either talk about it or you signal. The rules do not say anything about reporting two different fouls because we simply blow our whistles or do not signal.

Rules only include two different signals (block and a PC foul) and what to do with that strictly under the rules. To assume more is really over the top if you ask me. Not saying you personally JAR is saying that, just think we doing what we do on this board, over analyze the common and basic situation and turn into something we were never talking about in the first place.

Another day, another dollar I guess.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rules only include two different signals (block and a PC foul) and what to do with that strictly under the rules. To assume more is really over the top if you ask me.

Gonna have to explain that one a bit more.

[tref]

Ok, sooooooo... all of that being said, I shouldnt follow Jurassic's "Wonderful Words of Wisdom" on this matter & go with what I originally said in post #91 instead?