This past weekend in Vegas

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Yes, you could bring your own crew, but I will ask some questions beforehand. It isn't anything personal, but I have to have certain information.

I would ask questions, too. Not sure which questions I'd ask, but I'd ask something, I think, just to get a reaction.

I always look for the sock color these days in instructions cause one group likes black while another group likes white. I took both to my last camp cause it wasn't specified.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Sock color ... one group likes black while another group likes white.

After twenty-nine years of not doing summer basketball, I decided to work some AAU games this summer. I bought some black officials shorts. That was the easy part. I still can't figure out if I should wear black or white socks. Most of my partners have worn very low cut white socks that barely show above the top of the shoe. I wear crew socks. Help?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

Sometimes, with adults, the only thing that really matters when it comes to enforcement on something like this is cash. You can stipulate a dress code all you want, but without any teeth in the code, it means nothing.
You're not going to take away games on short notice due to scheduling reasons. You can't dock their evaluation since it's not a camp. There are no long term consequences (other than Tom deciding not to bring you back next year, but for most guys it won't matter) so you're stuck with short term consequences. My guess is, with a tourney of that size, $500 spread out means fines averaged between $10 and $30 per fined official.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Let me fill in some blanks.
(snip)
With so many sites, there were officials who slipped through the cracks and I didn't know they were in over their heads until I got a call about them. It will not be as easy for officials to work games next year - I have to know I can count on officials being on time and being able to handle the games.

I've been meaning to ask, tomegun, what were some of the issues you dealt with that were indicative of officials being in over their heads?

You mentioned big talent; does that mean they coudn't keep up with the pace? they couldn't officiate above the rim? Got some rules wrong? Unable to deal with egos?

I'm curious.

[Judtech]

TOME What are the dates?
Mystere IS awesome, we have seen about 7 Cirq shows and that is our fav
HASH has GREAT chicken and waffles, but I don't have it with onions. French Toast is also good. (However, I will not be eating a pregame meal there! Unless you have a partner who wants to roll me up and down!)
Batista's is behind what used to be the Barbary Coast (Billy's?) about a block and a half. Across the street from the end of Bally's

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've been meaning to ask, tomegun, what were some of the issues you dealt with that were indicative of officials being in over their heads?

You mentioned big talent; does that mean they coudn't keep up with the pace? they couldn't officiate above the rim? Got some rules wrong? Unable to deal with egos?

I'm curious.

They couldn't manage everything necessary to be successful in that environment. The speed of the game and the size of the players were obviously too much for some to handle. Nerves were an issue for some. Dealing with coaches is a balancing act also.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Judtech

TOME What are the dates?
Mystere IS awesome, we have seen about 7 Cirq shows and that is our fav
HASH has GREAT chicken and waffles, but I don't have it with onions. French Toast is also good. (However, I will not be eating a pregame meal there! Unless you have a partner who wants to roll me up and down!)
Batista's is behind what used to be the Barbary Coast (Billy's?) about a block and a half. Across the street from the end of Bally's

The 3rd week in July; they start on a Thursday. There is also a camp if anyone is interested. The camp will get larger every year.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes.

While it's not exactly a fine, one of my collegiate assignors has been known to remove officials from subsequent games as a suspension for failure to follow his dress code.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes.

Just a guess but I'm thinking the nature of the event is largely the reason for the fines.

In a normal association, the assignor might address the issue by a reduction in future assignments (fewer games, lower level games, or even not games at all). In a multi-day tourney with officials coming from out of town, this assignor really doesn't have that leverage. Aside from money, he has no leverage at all.

Without it, you might have some officials showing up in stripes with others in greys (perhaps because that is what their area wears or perhaps because they're trying to bigtime). That just doesn't look too good. I doubt is is really about the color of the socks. And, as I said earlier, the only real leverage the assignor has is money. An official can either be "uniform" or be compensated less for not filling all the requirements of the job as spelled out when they accepted the job.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After twenty-nine years of not doing summer basketball, I decided to work some AAU games this summer. I bought some black officials shorts. That was the easy part. I still can't figure out if I should wear black or white socks. Most of my partners have worn very low cut white socks that barely show above the top of the shoe. I wear crew socks. Help?

I believe the actual "rule" in my area is white crew socks, however no one really wears crew socks and most don't even wear white socks either. I think it just depends on how strict your board or assignor is regarding the uniform. Just bring bring both (white and black) with you. At least you'll be able to match what your partner is wearing.

[amusedofficial]

I've never understood the present fad of wearing those socks that don't show above the shoe. They were always known as "peds" which were something women wore on the bottom of their feet and I was apparently absent the day the sock police decreed they were acceptable for men. They are also uncomfortable as hell.

Black socks are another issue. Summer gyms often have no changing facilities or they didn't pay for a janitor to open officials lockerrooms. So if they ask for black socks, we then end up wearing some sort of street shoes or sneakers into the venue while wearing black socks and shorts. There is nothing dorkier than a middle aged man walking down the street wearing black socks and shorts. I would imagine this fashion embarrassment is a bigger problem in Las Vegas due to the propensity of hot moms to make the trip.

[amusedofficial]

It also occurs to me, I've never worked a huge thing like the Vegas tournaments talk about here, but does anyone leverage the fact that officials are coming in from all over into some kind of sweetheart deal with a hotel?

Obviously the hotels would benefit as the "official officials hotel" would draw all sorts of women eager to be whistled for "reaching in," "over the back," or "up and down."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

I've never understood the present fad of wearing those socks that don't show above the shoe. They were always known as "peds" which were something women wore on the bottom of their feet and I was apparently absent the day the sock police decreed they were acceptable for men. They are also uncomfortable as hell.

I wear what are called "ankle socks". They show above the shoe, but only a few inches. I accidentally bought the type of socks you mentioned and I think they're still in my drawer, but I should just throw them out cause, as you said, they're incredibly uncomfortable.