This past weekend in Vegas

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Wow, your only concern with number of games were officials doing 3-4? One of my biggest struggles was officials wanting to come here and make a lot of money. With travel and lodging it is difficult - some officials wanted me to give them 8-10 games a day. By last night I could see officials struggling. I know this is driven by the economy, but I will have strict standards next year. I don't know how they do it; I did four games yesterday and I was tired (I didn't plan on doing four, but when I asked the site director if he wanted three-man for the last four games I was the only official there so I had to do the first two of those last four).

The other problem I had was officials thinking they could receive games from me and assign them or that they were the leader of their group that came with them. Some of those officials will not be back; I have someone I'm accountable to and I have to know what is going on.

We have guys in our area that also want to work 8-10 games in a day and they are walking up and down the court during game #1! An official that has respect for himself and the game (IMO) will not work more than four games in a day.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

We have guys in our area that also want to work 8-10 games in a day and they are walking up and down the court during game #1! An official that has respect for himself and the game (IMO) will not work more than four games in a day.

I work a few leagues/tournaments in the Sl. Louis area. I can only handle 4 games. Mentally and physically I break down at 4 games. I do see other that are doing 6-9 games. They move slow. One guy moves soooooooo slooooooooow down the court, that if the court was cement, it would harden before he got from one end to the other.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Fixed it for ya'.

No need to fix it. That is not my opinion of rec ball.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

I can only handle 4 games. Mentally and physically I break down at 4 games.

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

An official that has respect for himself and the game (IMO) will not work more than four games in a day.

I won't heap "everyone" into the same category and put a definite # on how many games an official can/should do. The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required.

Interestingly enough - my limit right now is also four (on a large HS court). MS or ES, maybe one more.

A few months back I did a tourney and was asked to do five. After I drove the 45 minutes or so home and pulled up at my house, getting out of my car was quite a challenge.....sore and stiff...... getting old I guess. But, it sure beats the alternative.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I won't heap "everyone" into the same category and put a definite # on how many games an official can/should do. The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required.

Interestingly enough - my limit right now is also four (on a large HS court). MS or ES, maybe one more.

A few months back I did a tourney and was asked to do five. After I drove the 45 minutes or so home and pulled up at my house, getting out of my car was quite a challenge.....sore and stiff...... getting old I guess. But, it sure beats the alternative.

This line is the exact reason why the assigner needs to decide how many games in a day: "The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required." Guys will walk up and down the court for the $$$ if we let them.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

This line is the exact reason why the assigner needs to decide how many games in a day: "The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required." Guys will walk up and down the court for the $$$ if we let them.

I'm not going to disagree, but I was referring more to a person like me, who knows his limits and won't try to exceed them, as opposed to someone possibly in the "making as much $ as they can and not caring about their performance mode."

But, I do not agree with an arbirtary number - such as four games. A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If an evaluator/assignor reviews every official and knows their limits, then they could/should assign accordingly. I just don't see that in my neck of the woods, and restrict myself based on my abilities.

[CoachCER]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I'm not going to disagree, but I was referring more to a person like me, who knows his limits and won't try to exceed them, as opposed to someone possibly in the "making as much $ as they can and not caring about their performance mode."

But, I do not agree with an arbirtary number - such as four games. A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If an evaluator/assignor reviews every official and knows their limits, then they could/should assign accordingly. I just don't see that in my neck of the woods, and restrict myself based on my abilities.

I agree that most of the younger guys can do okay with 4+, but in general, I think 4 is a decent cut-off for many.

When I coached AAU, there was nothing more frustrating than having the last Saturday game and getting someone who had worked 7 games that day. I frequently saw guys who I generally thought were very strong officials spit the bit after so many games. I also know that not all of them did it for the money, and instead were bailing out the assignor and replacing no shows, in which case all you can do is thank them for doing their best.

I used to 6-7 kids games (5th-6th grade) a day in my younger days, and I think I pulled it off okay, although I don't think I was nearly as sharp later in the day. I much preferred 4-5, but our group was small and I did what I was assigned.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by grunewar

A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If age is your criteria, then I can do about one quarter.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If age is your criteria, then I can do about one quarter.

I believe I used enough "maybe's" in there to qualify my statement as an example and not the only factor. Besides, we all know you can do at least a half!

Me on the other hand....maybe not so much!

[Johnny Ringo]

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Why do I think this goes on all year and not just during the summers?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Perhaps the officials aren't paid enough per game (I have no knowledge of LV basketball, so I'm not specifically referring to it -- rather any sport where I have to stay in a hotel to work the games). I know that if I'm going to *go* someplace to officiate, it had better pay for all my expenses (hotel, meals) at a minimum. If it takes 8 games to do that, I'll probably work the 8 games.

If I'm told I'm only going to work 2 games a day and the pay is $20 a game, why would I want to work *at all*?

[Johnny Ringo]

IMO ... many ref the game just for the money. A source of income, and don't take pride in being a good official. Working that many games in a day is not fair to the kids. PERIOD.

And it showed last week.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CoachCER

I agree that most of the younger guys can do okay with 4+, but in general, I think 4 is a decent cut-off for many.

When I coached AAU, there was nothing more frustrating than having the last Saturday game and getting someone who had worked 7 games that day. I frequently saw guys who I generally thought were very strong officials spit the bit after so many games. I also know that not all of them did it for the money, and instead were bailing out the assignor and replacing no shows, in which case all you can do is thank them for doing their best.

Astute points delivered in a classy manner. Many tournaments simply don't have enough officials. This next post explains why.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Perhaps the officials aren't paid enough per game (I have no knowledge of LV basketball, so I'm not specifically referring to it -- rather any sport where I have to stay in a hotel to work the games). I know that if I'm going to *go* someplace to officiate, it had better pay for all my expenses (hotel, meals) at a minimum. If it takes 8 games to do that, I'll probably work the 8 games.

If I'm told I'm only going to work 2 games a day and the pay is $20 a game, why would I want to work *at all*?

Rich points out that most summer tournaments don't want to pay enough for the officials. That's true. The Vegas pay was $30 for 3-man games and $35 for 2-man the last time that I was there. Now understand that these games are the full 32 minutes (whether played in 2 halves or 4 quarters) and the clock stops on all whistles. They are not running clock. So why is the game fee not closer to the regular season HS fee of $50 for 3-man and $60 for 2-man? My personal opinion is that this summer pay is too low. The tournament organizers and the assignors have to negotiate a better deal for the officials. Right now the out-of-town officials pay for their own lodging, transportation, and meals. If the tournament picked up some of that, then I would agree with the lower game fee.

We all know that if the pay was higher, then the event would be able to attract more officials. That would allow for assignors to limit people to 4-5 games per day instead of 7+. But as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If the event wants to pay a low fee, then mostly it will be the low quality officials who will show up and desire to work a bunch of games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Rich points out that most summer tournaments don't want to pay enough for the officials. That's true. The Vegas pay was $30 for 3-man games and $35 for 2-man the last time that I was there. Now understand that these games are the full 32 minutes (whether played in 2 halves or 4 quarters) and the clock stops on all whistles. They are not running clock. So why is the game fee not closer to the regular season HS fee of $50 for 3-man and $60 for 2-man? My personal opinion is that this summer pay is too low. The tournament organizers and the assignors have to negotiate a better deal for the officials. Right now the out-of-town officials pay for their own lodging, transportation, and meals. If the tournament picked up some of that, then I would agree with the lower game fee.

We all know that if the pay was higher, then the event would be able to attract more officials. That would allow for assignors to limit people to 4-5 games per day instead of 7+. But as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If the event wants to pay a low fee, then mostly it will be the low quality officials who will show up and desire to work a bunch of games.

I did a camp a few weeks ago where I busted tail for 13 full games over the course of a weekend. This was *with* running clocks. This was more basketball than I'm willing to work normally when I'm *getting* paid. I made it physically -- I was mentally tired at the end of the weekend.

If I was paid $50/game, I'd be happy working 3 games a day and spending the rest of the day enjoying myself. At $30 a game, it's hard paying for a hotel room at a decent hotel (I don't consider sharing a room with a bunch of other officials or staying in a flophouse attractive alternatives).

Paying officials $30 for stop-clock games? As Nevada says, you get what you pay for. I wouldn't leave the house for $30 a game, let alone travel to a place where I have to pay for a hotel, transportation, meals, and take vacation time.

What I find funny are people that expect champagne officials on a beer budget.