This past weekend in Vegas

[tomegun]

Let me fill in some blanks.

Keep in mind, first people blamed 9/11 for everything and now it is the economy.

Game fees (all two-man): $28, $25, $22.50 (I know)
Lodging: Palace station $29/night weekdays, $49/night weekends (I think this is right)

This year was the first year a camp was held the first two days of the tournament. Many of those officials stuck around and worked games for pay.

With so many sites, there were officials who slipped through the cracks and I didn't know they were in over their heads until I got a call about them. It will not be as easy for officials to work games next year - I have to know I can count on officials being on time and being able to handle the games.

I moved away for a few years and when I came back my goal was to come close to breaking even. I was able to stay with a friend, but I paid for a rental. Some of these officials are out of work and wanted to make some money. While I feel for them, I will have a standard amount of games, with a rest period in between, for all officials from out of town. I'm thinking it would be 3/rest/3. I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

I think this is way too low, but we have to realize we are the last thing these tournament directors think about - the scum at the bottom of the barrel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

This would be my approach; but my wife would likely come with me and not take too kindly to me working too many games.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This would be my approach; but my wife would likely come with me and not take too kindly to me working too many games.

That would be the way to do it, IMO. Make it as part of a vacation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Let me fill in some blanks.
I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This would be my approach; but my wife would likely come with me and not take too kindly to me working too many games.

Hey, that sounds like a good idea. Contact me in the future and I might just schedule a "vacation" to Vegas. I've never been there before but like to visit. And while i don't gamble or drink, I would love to see some of the shows such as Cirque du Soleil or Criss Angel.

[Judtech]

Keep me in the loop as well. Since the Mrs and I were married in Vegas (no she was NOT a showgirl!) we always love going back.
CAM - Cirque shows are awesome, but the Chris Angel show was a bit of a disappointment. I recommend Hash House a Go Go and Batista's Hole in The Wall for eating!

[tomegun]

Anyone who wants to come should PM me. I will NOT wait until a couple months before the tournaments to start putting this together again. I have a list now that I developed over the last couple of months - I do have a black list of officials who will not be back as long as I have any say!

IMO, Hash House a Go Go has super-large portions, but bland food. I haven't been to Batista's, but I'm willing to try it out.

Mystere (sp?) is an awesome show and O is good too.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think this is way too low, but we have to realize we are the last thing these tournament directors think about - the scum at the bottom of the barrel.

Sometimes, as scheduler, it's our job to TELL them. I had a softball league I scheduled for, but didn't work. $25 a game, start times 90 minutes apart... on a good day you could get in 4 with proper breaks, maybe 6 without. I told them this was too low, but they stuck with it. Eventually, they were only getting the umpires that would work ANYwhere. The good umpires were working for $35, 70-75 minutes apart (this is where I was working too!). After 2 years of this they told me they were disappointed with the quality of officiating, and decided to hire high-schoolers on their own to work the games.

Only took half a season of this before they came back to me, hat in hand, $40 a game 90 minutes apart, and the following season it was $35 / 75 - just like everyone else. They've been happy since (although I've since moved, I hear it's still good there).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Let me fill in some blanks.

Keep in mind, first people blamed 9/11 for everything and now it is the economy.

Game fees (all two-man): $28, $25, $22.50 (I know)
Lodging: Palace station $29/night weekdays, $49/night weekends (I think this is right)

Eww. What's the pay differential? Different levels of basketball?

You know, I say I wouldn't do it, but I would if I could bring my own crew and we could work a fairly light schedule to leave time for other things. For those who need to make money, it sounds miserable, but for those looking for a partly subsidized vacation, it sounds OK. It would cost me a bit more than $29/$49 to stay, I think, cause I'd be in a nice place on the strip.

Not arriving on time is inexcusable, but I would expect to have the "can't handle the level of ball" issue every year. As a scheduler, you just deal with that and try to survive. I dealt with it for 3 years of adult baseball -- I just tried hiding the weak umpires on the non-competitive games and made sure to rotate them around so the same team didn't see them more than twice (cause then I'd get complaints).

You mentioned guys were out of uniform. How does *that* happen? I mean, surely you allow black shorts for summer games with such low pay, right?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Eww. What's the pay differential? Different levels of basketball?

You know, I say I wouldn't do it, but I would if I could bring my own crew and we could work a fairly light schedule to leave time for other things. For those who need to make money, it sounds miserable, but for those looking for a partly subsidized vacation, it sounds OK. It would cost me a bit more than $29/$49 to stay, I think, cause I'd be in a nice place on the strip.

Not arriving on time is inexcusable, but I would expect to have the "can't handle the level of ball" issue every year. As a scheduler, you just deal with that and try to survive. I dealt with it for 3 years of adult baseball -- I just tried hiding the weak umpires on the non-competitive games and made sure to rotate them around so the same team didn't see them more than twice (cause then I'd get complaints).

You mentioned guys were out of uniform. How does *that* happen? I mean, surely you allow black shorts for summer games with such low pay, right?

There were three different tournaments. One tournament was the low fee - something that will hopefully be addressed. The other differential was for two different levels of one tournament.

Yes, you could bring your own crew, but I will ask some questions beforehand. It isn't anything personal, but I have to have certain information.

This was the largest event I've scheduled for and I learned a lot. Certain officials will not see certain facilities because the games were just too big for them. When you have 10 D1 players on the court and every big name coach you can think of watching them I cannot afford to be generous with the games. I know my phone will ring (I had to change my plan because I went over 1500 text messages), but if I can limit the calls I will.

Two organizations were involved with this event. So I have two people I must answer to and they must answer to the tournament directors. Officials guidelines were sent out and the uniform was clearly defined. All black shorts, 90% black shoes, WHITE socks and black and white stripes. Doesn't sound too hard huh? Well, apparently it was. The fines were clearly defined too and officials still did things to take money out of their pockets. I was amazed by it all. I think fines were in the neighborhood of $500!

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...

Two organizations were involved with this event. So I have two people I must answer to and they must answer to the tournament directors. Officials guidelines were sent out and the uniform was clearly defined. All black shorts, 90% black shoes, WHITE socks and black and white stripes. Doesn't sound too hard huh? Well, apparently it was. The fines were clearly defined too and officials still did things to take money out of their pockets. I was amazed by it all. I think fines were in the neighborhood of $500!

In regards to the fines, although not an issue when I arrive to a game.

Fines just seem like the organizers looking for excuses to cut the referees and remind them of their place. They could not do what they do if referees don't do what they do.

I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

He's talking about officials, not players - and the dress code he was asking for sounds like something that EVERY basketball official has - so not wearing it seems to be either extraordinarily lazy, or intentionally sloppy. I have no problem with docking the pay of guys who can't follow an easy dress code. I hope the money went to charity or a local high school or something - and not the tourney director's or UIC's pockets!

[Nevadaref]

For anyone who does make the trip and work for Tom, you will find that he is first class. He does things the right way and backs his people. Of course, in return he asks that you take care of business. Be on time, be in the proper uniform, don't cause unnecessary problems, handle the little stuff without bothering him, etc.

I've done games both for him and with him. My experience was completely positive.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

Sometimes, with adults, the only thing that really matters when it comes to enforcement on something like this is cash. You can stipulate a dress code all you want, but without any teeth in the code, it means nothing.
You're not going to take away games on short notice due to scheduling reasons. You can't dock their evaluation since it's not a camp. There are no long term consequences (other than Tom deciding not to bring you back next year, but for most guys it won't matter) so you're stuck with short term consequences. My guess is, with a tourney of that size, $500 spread out means fines averaged between $10 and $30 per fined official.