This past weekend in Vegas

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...

Two organizations were involved with this event. So I have two people I must answer to and they must answer to the tournament directors. Officials guidelines were sent out and the uniform was clearly defined. All black shorts, 90% black shoes, WHITE socks and black and white stripes. Doesn't sound too hard huh? Well, apparently it was. The fines were clearly defined too and officials still did things to take money out of their pockets. I was amazed by it all. I think fines were in the neighborhood of $500!

In regards to the fines, although not an issue when I arrive to a game.

Fines just seem like the organizers looking for excuses to cut the referees and remind them of their place. They could not do what they do if referees don't do what they do.

I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

He's talking about officials, not players - and the dress code he was asking for sounds like something that EVERY basketball official has - so not wearing it seems to be either extraordinarily lazy, or intentionally sloppy. I have no problem with docking the pay of guys who can't follow an easy dress code. I hope the money went to charity or a local high school or something - and not the tourney director's or UIC's pockets!

[Nevadaref]

For anyone who does make the trip and work for Tom, you will find that he is first class. He does things the right way and backs his people. Of course, in return he asks that you take care of business. Be on time, be in the proper uniform, don't cause unnecessary problems, handle the little stuff without bothering him, etc.

I've done games both for him and with him. My experience was completely positive.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

Sometimes, with adults, the only thing that really matters when it comes to enforcement on something like this is cash. You can stipulate a dress code all you want, but without any teeth in the code, it means nothing.
You're not going to take away games on short notice due to scheduling reasons. You can't dock their evaluation since it's not a camp. There are no long term consequences (other than Tom deciding not to bring you back next year, but for most guys it won't matter) so you're stuck with short term consequences. My guess is, with a tourney of that size, $500 spread out means fines averaged between $10 and $30 per fined official.

[Judtech]

TOME What are the dates?
Mystere IS awesome, we have seen about 7 Cirq shows and that is our fav
HASH has GREAT chicken and waffles, but I don't have it with onions. French Toast is also good. (However, I will not be eating a pregame meal there! Unless you have a partner who wants to roll me up and down!)
Batista's is behind what used to be the Barbary Coast (Billy's?) about a block and a half. Across the street from the end of Bally's

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Judtech

TOME What are the dates?
Mystere IS awesome, we have seen about 7 Cirq shows and that is our fav
HASH has GREAT chicken and waffles, but I don't have it with onions. French Toast is also good. (However, I will not be eating a pregame meal there! Unless you have a partner who wants to roll me up and down!)
Batista's is behind what used to be the Barbary Coast (Billy's?) about a block and a half. Across the street from the end of Bally's

The 3rd week in July; they start on a Thursday. There is also a camp if anyone is interested. The camp will get larger every year.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes.

While it's not exactly a fine, one of my collegiate assignors has been known to remove officials from subsequent games as a suspension for failure to follow his dress code.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes.

Just a guess but I'm thinking the nature of the event is largely the reason for the fines.

In a normal association, the assignor might address the issue by a reduction in future assignments (fewer games, lower level games, or even not games at all). In a multi-day tourney with officials coming from out of town, this assignor really doesn't have that leverage. Aside from money, he has no leverage at all.

Without it, you might have some officials showing up in stripes with others in greys (perhaps because that is what their area wears or perhaps because they're trying to bigtime). That just doesn't look too good. I doubt is is really about the color of the socks. And, as I said earlier, the only real leverage the assignor has is money. An official can either be "uniform" or be compensated less for not filling all the requirements of the job as spelled out when they accepted the job.