illegal dribble?

[NateBoudy]

These plays are easy...if you don't know, let it go.

Will be less trouble trying to explain to a coach -- as you can see it's been hard to explain right here in this forum

Unless it's an obvious violation that everyone sees/knows, it's better to pass. I'd rather pass and be wrong (and if i missed it i missed it) than to call a violation that doesnt exist.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1 passed the ball to A2, and upon seeing A2 depart the reception area, runs over and grabs the ball. If the throw is a pass, then he hasn't dribbled again and this would be legal. However, the throw is a dribble and thus even the recovery is illegal for A1.

Right. The crucial part of the definition of pass is "to another player." If it doesn't contact another player, it isn't a pass.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

Then what is it? Please assign a term to this action.

Originally Posted by mbyron

As for fumble, here's the entire definition: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp."

I read the operative concept as loss of player control. As we know, a dribbler has control of the ball (4-12-1) and therefore can lose it, for example by fumbling. I'm going to read "grasp" loosely as a gloss on 'player control'.

Your interpretation forces you to fudge on your definition and ignore a clear word/concept. That's because it is incorrect. You can't deem this play illegal, yet you know that a fumble just doesn't fit here.

[Camron Rust]

Consider the illegal dribble rule in a very literal sense for a moment....

1. A1 dribbles.
2. A1 ends the dribble.
3. A1, for some unknown reason, deliberately drops/sets the ball on the floor at his/her feet.
4. A2 eventually comes a long and picks up the ball.
5. A2 hands it back to A1.

Can A1 dribble again?

Is the action in 3 a fumble? No. It didn't accidentally slip from A1's grasp.

Is the action in 3 & 4 a pass? By some interpretations here, No. Hmmm. Does that make sense.

If it is not a pass, A1 can not dribble again since there was no try, no bat by an opponent, and no pass.

What if this sequence of 3 & 4 continued from A2 to A3, then A3 to A4, then A4 to A5, then back from A5 to A1. If it is not a pass, then A1 stiil can't dribble again.

Furthermore, what if the sequence even continued though all of team B. Still not a "bat" by an opponent, not a try. So, is it a pass? If not, A1 still can't dribble again.

So, do we still think this is not a pass? Of course not. I think we'd all agree that the actions in the sequence above would allow A1 to dribble again. Therefore, the actions in 3 & 4 must be a pass.

I claim that, if the ball so much as touches another player when it is not in player control, it is a pass.

[Camron Rust]

Also note that the actions described in the OP are neither a fumble nor a muff.

A fumble is accidentally losing grip on a ball that was being held...not a ball being dribbled or passed.

A muff occurs when a player unsuccessfully attempts to catch a ball that was either being dribbled or passed to them.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Consider the illegal dribble rule in a very literal sense for a moment....

1. A1 dribbles.
2. A1 ends the dribble.
3. A1, for some unknown reason, deliberately drops/sets the ball on the floor at his/her feet.
4. A2 eventually comes a long and picks up the ball.
5. A2 hands it back to A1.

Can A1 dribble again?

That's a TWP that would never happen. If it did happen, I'd rule that A1 left the ball for A2, which constitutes a pass because of its intent. If B2 had come along instead of A2, A1 would not have allowed B2 to pick it up; therefore, he intends to pass it to a teammate.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's a TWP that would never happen. If it did happen, I'd rule that A1 left the ball for A2, which constitutes a pass because of its intent. If B2 had come along instead of A2, A1 would not have allowed B2 to pick it up; therefore, he intends to pass it to a teammate.

Let's change it. A1 dribbles behind his back as A2 cuts behind him. A2 accidentally kicks the ball to A3, who throws it back to A1. Can he dribble?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let's change it. A1 dribbles behind his back as A2 cuts behind him. A2 accidentally kicks the ball to A3, who throws it back to A1. Can he dribble?

Well, how did his dribble end?

A3 clearly passed the ball back, but I guess your point is that that's not the issue. I think it's relevant that another player had control, and could have dribbled himself before passing.

If you're saying that the rule could be clearer I agree. I'm not sure what else follows from this case.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Well, how did his dribble end?

A3 clearly passed the ball back, but I guess your point is that that's not the issue. I think it's relevant that another player had control, and could have dribbled himself before passing.

If you're saying that the rule could be clearer I agree. I'm not sure what else follows from this case.

I wish they'd add "interrupted dribble" to the rule. You say it's significant that a teammate had control, but that's not in the rule.

Another play: A1 with the ball, having used his dribble, attempts to hand it off to A2 as he runs by. A2 is not able to grab the ball, but knocks it away. A1 is the first to retrieve it (assume the ball bounced prior to A1's retrieval). Illegal dribble?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I wish they'd add "interrupted dribble" to the rule. You say it's significant that a teammate had control, but that's not in the rule.

Another play: A1 with the ball, having used his dribble, attempts to hand it off to A2 as he runs by. A2 is not able to grab the ball, but knocks it away. A1 is the first to retrieve it (assume the ball bounced prior to A1's retrieval). Illegal dribble?

OK, now I see where you're headed. You don't like the illegal dribble rule because there are some ways for a dribble to end that should allow the dribbler a new dribble. As written, the rule seems to disallow a new dribble.

I thought you were on about my claim that a pass is intentional. I'm prepared to agree with you about the illegal dribble rule.