illegal dribble?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

there's nothing in the rule which requires it to be intentional.

Disagree. It's impossible to throw, bat, or roll the ball TO another player by accident.

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

As for fumble, here's the entire definition: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp."

I read the operative concept as loss of player control. As we know, a dribbler has control of the ball (4-12-1) and therefore can lose it, for example by fumbling. I'm going to read "grasp" loosely as a gloss on 'player control'.

A fumble is the accidental loss of player control; a pass or a try is the intentional loss of player control.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Disagree. It's impossible to throw, bat, or roll the ball TO another player by accident.

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

If they would simply add "interrupted dribble" to this definition, it wouldn't matter.

I don't see anything inherently intentional in a pass. A pass is defined by the result, not the intent. Consider:
A1 is holding the ball and has already used his dribble.
A1 attempts to throw the ball to A2.
A2 does not see the throw and turns to cut around his defender.
A1, seeing this, retrieves the ball after it has bounced a few times.

What was intended as a pass has now become an illegal dribble.

Personally, I find the "pass" definition easier to justify with the rules. The definition of fumble requires a player to have a "grasp" of the ball. While a dribbler is certainly in "control," as defined, he is certainly not "grasping" the ball.

In the OP, what if A2 grabbed the ball, then dropped it for A1?
What if A2 had purposefully batted it back to A1?
Play, A1 dribbling, loses control. A2 bats the ball back to A1 who grabs it with two hands and then proceeds to dribble. Call?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Play, A1 dribbling, loses control. A2 bats the ball back to A1 who grabs it with two hands and then proceeds to dribble. Call?

As I envision this, A2 passed the ball back. Legal.

I disagree with your view that a pass is defined by the outcome rather than the intent. Indeed, I think it's exactly the reverse. I doubt that you can specify the outcome in a way that rules out rebounds and recoveries of loose balls from being passes.

As for your proposed counterexample, where A1 passes the ball to A2, who runs away because he didn't see the pass: that's still a pass, even though it's incomplete (to apply a football concept). We don't have the concept of an incomplete pass in basketball because (a) in the vast majority of cases passes are completed, and (b) when they aren't it's just a loose ball (not a dead ball).

And, merely passing the ball does not satisfy the requirements for starting a new dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As I envision this, A2 passed the ball back. Legal.

Based on what rule?

Originally Posted by mbyron

I disagree with your view that a pass is defined by the outcome rather than the intent. Indeed, I think it's exactly the reverse. I doubt that you can specify the outcome in a way that rules out rebounds and recoveries of loose balls from being passes.

Why would I need to? I'm assuming you're talking about a play where A2 tips a rebound to A3.

Originally Posted by mbyron

As for your proposed counterexample, where A1 passes the ball to A2, who runs away because he didn't see the pass: that's still a pass, even though it's incomplete (to apply a football concept). We don't have the concept of an incomplete pass in basketball because (a) in the vast majority of cases passes are completed, and (b) when they aren't it's just a loose ball (not a dead ball).

And, merely passing the ball does not satisfy the requirements for starting a new dribble.

No new dribble. A1 passed the ball to A2, and upon seeing A2 depart the reception area, runs over and grabs the ball. If the throw is a pass, then he hasn't dribbled again and this would be legal. However, the throw is a dribble and thus even the recovery is illegal for A1.

[NateBoudy]

These plays are easy...if you don't know, let it go.

Will be less trouble trying to explain to a coach -- as you can see it's been hard to explain right here in this forum

Unless it's an obvious violation that everyone sees/knows, it's better to pass. I'd rather pass and be wrong (and if i missed it i missed it) than to call a violation that doesnt exist.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1 passed the ball to A2, and upon seeing A2 depart the reception area, runs over and grabs the ball. If the throw is a pass, then he hasn't dribbled again and this would be legal. However, the throw is a dribble and thus even the recovery is illegal for A1.

Right. The crucial part of the definition of pass is "to another player." If it doesn't contact another player, it isn't a pass.

[Camron Rust]

Consider the illegal dribble rule in a very literal sense for a moment....

1. A1 dribbles.
2. A1 ends the dribble.
3. A1, for some unknown reason, deliberately drops/sets the ball on the floor at his/her feet.
4. A2 eventually comes a long and picks up the ball.
5. A2 hands it back to A1.

Can A1 dribble again?

Is the action in 3 a fumble? No. It didn't accidentally slip from A1's grasp.

Is the action in 3 & 4 a pass? By some interpretations here, No. Hmmm. Does that make sense.

If it is not a pass, A1 can not dribble again since there was no try, no bat by an opponent, and no pass.

What if this sequence of 3 & 4 continued from A2 to A3, then A3 to A4, then A4 to A5, then back from A5 to A1. If it is not a pass, then A1 stiil can't dribble again.

Furthermore, what if the sequence even continued though all of team B. Still not a "bat" by an opponent, not a try. So, is it a pass? If not, A1 still can't dribble again.

So, do we still think this is not a pass? Of course not. I think we'd all agree that the actions in the sequence above would allow A1 to dribble again. Therefore, the actions in 3 & 4 must be a pass.

I claim that, if the ball so much as touches another player when it is not in player control, it is a pass.

[Camron Rust]

Also note that the actions described in the OP are neither a fumble nor a muff.

A fumble is accidentally losing grip on a ball that was being held...not a ball being dribbled or passed.

A muff occurs when a player unsuccessfully attempts to catch a ball that was either being dribbled or passed to them.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Consider the illegal dribble rule in a very literal sense for a moment....

1. A1 dribbles.
2. A1 ends the dribble.
3. A1, for some unknown reason, deliberately drops/sets the ball on the floor at his/her feet.
4. A2 eventually comes a long and picks up the ball.
5. A2 hands it back to A1.

Can A1 dribble again?

That's a TWP that would never happen. If it did happen, I'd rule that A1 left the ball for A2, which constitutes a pass because of its intent. If B2 had come along instead of A2, A1 would not have allowed B2 to pick it up; therefore, he intends to pass it to a teammate.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's a TWP that would never happen. If it did happen, I'd rule that A1 left the ball for A2, which constitutes a pass because of its intent. If B2 had come along instead of A2, A1 would not have allowed B2 to pick it up; therefore, he intends to pass it to a teammate.

Let's change it. A1 dribbles behind his back as A2 cuts behind him. A2 accidentally kicks the ball to A3, who throws it back to A1. Can he dribble?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

Then what is it? Please assign a term to this action.

Originally Posted by mbyron

As for fumble, here's the entire definition: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp."

I read the operative concept as loss of player control. As we know, a dribbler has control of the ball (4-12-1) and therefore can lose it, for example by fumbling. I'm going to read "grasp" loosely as a gloss on 'player control'.

Your interpretation forces you to fudge on your definition and ignore a clear word/concept. That's because it is incorrect. You can't deem this play illegal, yet you know that a fumble just doesn't fit here.