illegal dribble?

[wanja]

A fellow official called me regarding this play which was disputed among officials. A1 attempts to dribble behind his back and the ball hits A2 and then rolls before A1 picks it up and begins a new dribble. Is this an illegal (double) dribble? My response is yes based on the determination that A1's action was neither a pass or fumble. I didn't locate a relevant case.

Here's rule 9-5.

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

Art 1... A try for field goal.
Art 2... A touch by an opponent.
Art 3... A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by another player.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by wanja

A fellow official called me regarding this play which was disputed among officials. A1 attempts to dribble behind his back and the ball hits A2 and then rolls before A1 picks it up and begins a new dribble. Is this an illegal (double) dribble? My response is yes based on the determination that A1's action was neither a pass or fumble. I didn't locate a relevant case.

Here's rule 9-5.

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

Art 1... A try for field goal.
Art 2... A touch by an opponent.
Art 3... A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by another player.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

This was a pass.

[Nevadaref]

I agree with JAR.

[mbyron]

I disagree with JAR. The player was dribbling behind his back and the ball bounced off a teammate.

That doesn't constitute a pass because it was not intentional. IMO throwing, bouncing, or rolling the ball TO another player (as opposed to off his leg) must be intentional.

It does, however, constitute a fumble. No illegal dribble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I disagree with JAR. The player was dribbling behind his back and the ball bounced off a teammate.

That doesn't constitute a pass because it was not intentional. IMO throwing, bouncing, or rolling the ball TO another player (as opposed to off his leg) must be intentional.

It does, however, constitute a fumble. No illegal dribble.

I was going to go with fumble also. Regardless, pass or fumble, the play is not illegal.

[vbzebra]

fumble-dribble-fumble=ok
dribble-fumble-dribble=not ok

to me, this seems like the latter of the two.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

fumble-dribble-fumble=ok
dribble-fumble-dribble=not ok

to me, this seems like the latter of the two.

While it might have been the latter, the ball was touched by another plyaer during the fumble. So, the play is legal.

Just one example of how applying a catchy little bromide can get you in trouble if you don't understand the full rule behind it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I disagree with JAR. The player was dribbling behind his back and the ball bounced off a teammate.

That doesn't constitute a pass because it was not intentional. IMO throwing, bouncing, or rolling the ball TO another player (as opposed to off his leg) must be intentional.

It does, however, constitute a fumble. No illegal dribble.

I don't see how it could be a fumble.

"the ball........drops or slips from a players grasp."

In the OP, the player never attempted to grasp the ball.

The definition of a pass does not mention intent.

[Welpe]

I agree with Lord Byron, sounds like a fumble to me. Since it sounds like the fumble was backward, anybody on Team A can advance it...whoops sorry, mixed up my sports. Football season is coming afterall.

Sounds legal to me.

[Adam]

Sounds like an interrupted dribble to me, or a pass. Frankly, I'd call it a pass as there's nothing in the rule which requires it to be intentional.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While it might have been the latter, the ball was touched by another plyaer during the fumble. So, the play is legal.

Just one example of how applying a catchy little bromide can get you in trouble if you don't understand the full rule behind it.

good point. my mistake....

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

there's nothing in the rule which requires it to be intentional.

Disagree. It's impossible to throw, bat, or roll the ball TO another player by accident.

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

As for fumble, here's the entire definition: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp."

I read the operative concept as loss of player control. As we know, a dribbler has control of the ball (4-12-1) and therefore can lose it, for example by fumbling. I'm going to read "grasp" loosely as a gloss on 'player control'.

A fumble is the accidental loss of player control; a pass or a try is the intentional loss of player control.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Disagree. It's impossible to throw, bat, or roll the ball TO another player by accident.

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

If they would simply add "interrupted dribble" to this definition, it wouldn't matter.

I don't see anything inherently intentional in a pass. A pass is defined by the result, not the intent. Consider:
A1 is holding the ball and has already used his dribble.
A1 attempts to throw the ball to A2.
A2 does not see the throw and turns to cut around his defender.
A1, seeing this, retrieves the ball after it has bounced a few times.

What was intended as a pass has now become an illegal dribble.

Personally, I find the "pass" definition easier to justify with the rules. The definition of fumble requires a player to have a "grasp" of the ball. While a dribbler is certainly in "control," as defined, he is certainly not "grasping" the ball.

In the OP, what if A2 grabbed the ball, then dropped it for A1?
What if A2 had purposefully batted it back to A1?
Play, A1 dribbling, loses control. A2 bats the ball back to A1 who grabs it with two hands and then proceeds to dribble. Call?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Play, A1 dribbling, loses control. A2 bats the ball back to A1 who grabs it with two hands and then proceeds to dribble. Call?

As I envision this, A2 passed the ball back. Legal.

I disagree with your view that a pass is defined by the outcome rather than the intent. Indeed, I think it's exactly the reverse. I doubt that you can specify the outcome in a way that rules out rebounds and recoveries of loose balls from being passes.

As for your proposed counterexample, where A1 passes the ball to A2, who runs away because he didn't see the pass: that's still a pass, even though it's incomplete (to apply a football concept). We don't have the concept of an incomplete pass in basketball because (a) in the vast majority of cases passes are completed, and (b) when they aren't it's just a loose ball (not a dead ball).

And, merely passing the ball does not satisfy the requirements for starting a new dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As I envision this, A2 passed the ball back. Legal.

Based on what rule?

Originally Posted by mbyron

I disagree with your view that a pass is defined by the outcome rather than the intent. Indeed, I think it's exactly the reverse. I doubt that you can specify the outcome in a way that rules out rebounds and recoveries of loose balls from being passes.

Why would I need to? I'm assuming you're talking about a play where A2 tips a rebound to A3.

Originally Posted by mbyron

As for your proposed counterexample, where A1 passes the ball to A2, who runs away because he didn't see the pass: that's still a pass, even though it's incomplete (to apply a football concept). We don't have the concept of an incomplete pass in basketball because (a) in the vast majority of cases passes are completed, and (b) when they aren't it's just a loose ball (not a dead ball).

And, merely passing the ball does not satisfy the requirements for starting a new dribble.

No new dribble. A1 passed the ball to A2, and upon seeing A2 depart the reception area, runs over and grabs the ball. If the throw is a pass, then he hasn't dribbled again and this would be legal. However, the throw is a dribble and thus even the recovery is illegal for A1.