Did I Call This Correctly?

[ABC Coach]

Team A made a shot and team B quickly inbounded the ball. Team B threw the ball to half court, where one its players was waiting for the pass in his frontcourt. He bobbled the pass and the ball ended up going back into his backcourt without that player ever establishing possession. One of his teammates who was still in the backcourt picked up the loose ball and dribbled it into the frontcourt. I didn't call anything on the play and just let the game continue (the game was a blowout, so no real damage was done if I was wrong). Was this a backcourt violation...or...because no actual possession was made in the frontcourt, did I make the right call? Any help is appreciated.

[BillyMac]

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control; the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball in frontcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt.

There is no team control (NFHS) during a throwin until a player gains possession, that is holding, or dribbling the ball, thus, you were correct, no backcourt violation. Nice job on what is a tough call for nonofficials, and, unfortunately, a few officials.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ABC Coach

Team A made a shot and team B quickly inbounded the ball. Team B threw the ball to half court, where one its players was waiting for the pass in his frontcourt. He bobbled the pass and the ball ended up going back into his backcourt without that player ever establishing possession. One of his teammates who was still in the backcourt picked up the loose ball and dribbled it into the frontcourt. I didn't call anything on the play and just let the game continue (the game was a blowout, so no real damage was done if I was wrong). Was this a backcourt violation...or...because no actual possession was made in the frontcourt, did I make the right call? Any help is appreciated.

Who threw the ball to half court? I see two possibilities based on what you didn't write above.
1. B1 (OOB) makes a throw-in pass to B2, standing in his frontcourt, who does not catch the ball and it deflects into the backcourt.
2. B1 (OOB) makes a throw-in pass to B2, standing in the BC near the end line from which B1 threw his pass. B2 catches the pass, then turns and throws the ball to B3, standing in the FC, who does not catch the ball but deflects it into the BC.

In both cases, B4 is the first player to touch the ball after it goes into the BC.

#1 is not a violation, as team control was never established with the ball having FC status.
#2 is a violation, as team control was established prior to and continuously through the ball gaining FC status (when it deflected off of B2).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control; the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball in frontcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt.

There is no team control (NFHS) during a throwin until a player gains possession, that is holding, or dribbling the ball, thus, you were correct, no backcourt violation. Nice job on what is a tough call for nonofficials, and, unfortunately, a few officials.

Include yourself in the "unfortunate few officials"....it's a tough call for you too.

ABC in the original post said that a pass was touched in the frontcourt. Not a throw-in, a pass.

The play as described is a backcourt violation. Ergo, missed call by ABC. Team control was established before the pass. The ball then achieved frontcourt status when it touched the team B player standing in the frontcourt. The ball then went into the backcourt after touching the team B player and was touched by another team B player.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Include yourself in the "unfortunate few officials"....it's a tough call for you too.

ABC in the original post said that a pass was touched in the frontcourt. Not a throw-in, a pass.

The play as described is a backcourt violation. Ergo, missed call by ABC. Team control was established before the pass. The ball then achieved frontcourt status when it touched the team B player standing in the frontcourt. The ball then went into the backcourt after touching the team B player and was touched by another team B player.

I don't think it was clear. He did not say it was inbounded and then thrown to the FC. But the extra sentence COULD lead you to assume that to be the case. It also could be interpreted that the pass came as the inbound pass. So, the OP really needs to tell us if the pass was an inbounds pass or not.

[ABC Coach]

I've read the replies and then I reread my original post. I can see where the confusion came in...sorry for that. It was clear in my head, but not in my explanation.

After A1 made a shot, B1 threw the ball from OOB directly to B2 in their frontcourt. From there the pass was bobbled, etc., etc.

This being said, if B1 had passed to B2 in their backcourt...then B2 attempts a pass to B3 in the frontcourt and the pass is bobbled, and subsequently comes back into the backcourt where it is touched by another B player...is that a violation? It was my understanding that a B player must control the ball in the FC, not just touch or bobble it. Please correct me if I'm wrong...this is how I'm going to learn.

Sorry again for the confusion caused by the unclear original post. Thanks for all the help.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by ABC Coach

I've read the replies and then I reread my original post. I can see where the confusion came in...sorry for that. It was clear in my head, but not in my explanation.

After A1 made a shot, B1 threw the ball from OOB directly to B2 in their frontcourt. From there the pass was bobbled, etc., etc.

This being said, if B1 had passed to B2 in their backcourt...then B2 attempts a pass to B3 in the frontcourt and the pass is bobbled, and subsequently comes back into the backcourt where it is touched by another B player...is that a violation? It was my understanding that a B player must control the ball in the FC, not just touch or bobble it. Please correct me if I'm wrong...this is how I'm going to learn.

Sorry again for the confusion caused by the unclear original post. Thanks for all the help.

NOT A VIOLATION
If the pass is an inbounds pass from OB directly to a player in the FC, he bobbles and balls goes into BC where a teammate recovers in BC.

VIOLATION
If the inbounds pass is controled in the BC and then thrown to a player standing in the FC who bobbles the ball and it goes to BC where a teammate is the next to touch.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ABC Coach

It was my understanding that a B player must control the ball in the FC,

This is incorrect.

While there must be TC and the ball must reach the FC, there does not need to be PC in the FC to have a violation.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by ABC Coach

This being said, if B1 had passed to B2 in their backcourt...then B2 attempts a pass to B3 in the frontcourt and the pass is bobbled, and subsequently comes back into the backcourt where it is touched by another B player...is that a violation?

Yes. The four criteria that BillyMac listed are all here.

Originally Posted by ABC Coach

It was my understanding that a B player must control the ball in the FC, not just touch or bobble it. Please correct me if I'm wrong...this is how I'm going to learn.

No problem; this is how we all learn.

The key error in your post is listed in boldface: in the frontcourt. Such team control is NOT exclusive to the frontcourt. The example you provided above explains this perfectly. I hope this helps.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

ABC in the original post said that a pass was touched in the frontcourt. Not a throw-in, a pass.

A throw-in pass is still a pass.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ABC Coach

I've read the replies and then I reread my original post. I can see where the confusion came in...sorry for that. It was clear in my head, but not in my explanation.

After A1 made a shot, B1 threw the ball from OOB directly to B2 in their frontcourt. From there the pass was bobbled, etc., etc.

This being said, if B1 had passed to B2 in their backcourt...then B2 attempts a pass to B3 in the frontcourt and the pass is bobbled, and subsequently comes back into the backcourt where it is touched by another B player...is that a violation? It was my understanding that a B player must control the ball in the FC, not just touch or bobble it. Please correct me if I'm wrong...this is how I'm going to learn.

Sorry again for the confusion caused by the unclear original post. Thanks for all the help.

In order for a backcourt violation to occur the ball must first be controlled by a player inbounds, but not necessarily in the front court. The ball actually doesn't even have to be touched by anyone in the frontcourt. It merely has to reach the frontcourt while under TEAM control, and that could mean just contacting the floor in that area, or the basket/backboard, or even hitting an official who is positioned there.

w_sohl gave you the correct rulings for your two different plays.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A throw-in pass is still a pass.

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

Like I said......

[26 Year Gap]

Okay. The horse is dead.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Okay. The horse is dead.

We know that. The question still remains, should we keep beating it?