did i handle this correctly?

[joereed]

Scrimmage kick, R fields it at the 40 going out and procedes to return it for a a touchdown. It is at K'2 2 yardline and appears to be a no brainer touch down. Meanwhile R78 procedes and pushes one of K's players in the back all the way back at the 50. I ruled it as a personal foul and counted the TD and tacked on the 15 at the kickoff. Did I screw up by throwing the flag as soon as I seen it the foul (thus the returner not in the endzone yet) Or should I have waited until the returner was clearly in the endzone then throw the flag? I'm assuming I made the right enforcement logically , however in correct terms , the enforcment was wrong because the player had yet to cross the goalline? The only thing I can think I did wrong was not wait untill the obvious td was scored before making this call. 2nd year official

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by joereed

Scrimmage kick, R fields it at the 40 going out and procedes to return it for a a touchdown. It is at K'2 2 yardline and appears to be a no brainer touch down. Meanwhile R78 procedes and pushes one of K's players in the back all the way back at the 50. I ruled it as a personal foul and counted the TD and tacked on the 15 at the kickoff. Did I screw up by throwing the flag as soon as I seen it the foul (thus the returner not in the endzone yet) Or should I have waited until the returner was clearly in the endzone then throw the flag? I'm assuming I made the right enforcement logically , however in correct terms , the enforcment was wrong because the player had yet to cross the goalline? The only thing I can think I did wrong was not wait untill the obvious td was scored before making this call. 2nd year official

You didn't necessarily do the wrong thing, but that don't mean you handled it right either.

If you KNOW that the foul happened prior to the score, why WOULDN'T you want to take the points off the board? You just need to be sure where the ball is when you throw the foul.

There's nothing wrong with taking the points off the board for a stupid act away from the play. I can guarantee, that if the coach tears the player a new one for costing the team points, the player think twice about taking a shot at another player who is out of the play in the future.

[BktBallRef]

The determining factor is when the foul occurs, not when the flag is thrown.

If the foul occurs before the runner scores, bring it back.

[whitehat]

Technically it was alive ball foul as well as an ABO foul, so not only is it not a TD but you would enforce the foul from the 50 taking the "otherwise TD return" back to their own 40 1st and 10.

We have had this discussion here and locally and although its OK to take points off the board my tendancy, especially on a play like you described is to do what you did. I can see RefBuz viewpoint as well.

I have told coaches in situaitons like that, that technically I could call back the TD...then coach screams for the kid and when he gets there he screams AT the kid.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by whitehat

We have had this discussion here and locally and although its OK to take points off the board my tendancy, especially on a play like you described is to do what you did. I can see RefBuz viewpoint as well.

I have told coaches in situaitons like that, that technically I could call back the TD...then coach screams for the kid and when he gets there he screams AT the kid.

Why are you making up your own rules?

[RadioBlue]

Bringing this one back is not within the spirit of the rules IMO.
The rationale behind the all-but-one principle is that the offense gets all the yardage gained without the advantage of an illegal act. How is a BIB 50 yards behind the play giving the offense an advantage.
I would flag for a PF/UR. Score stands. 15-yards from the succeeding spot.

[mbyron]

I have a couple questions for the OP?

1. Why are you flagging a BIB 40 yards away from the play?
2. Why are you calling a BIB a PF?
3. If the foul occurred during the play (before the TD), why are you worried about canceling the score?

From what you've said, I'm guessing that the foul isn't really a BIB, but rather a cheap shot on an unsuspecting lineman who was watching the play. That's a PF all right, but not for BIB (even if that's what he did to earn the flag).

The cheap shot or unnecessary roughness might have occurred before or after the TD. You have to make that call and enforce it accordingly. If you have to bring it back, so be it: YOU didn't cheap shot anyone. How's a kid going to learn not to do that without consequences?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I would flag for a PF/UR. Score stands. 15-yards from the succeeding spot.

It is not your job to decide which rules are not written correctly and make up your own enforcements.

[ppaltice]

Couple things...

1. If you have a PF that occurs before the TD, bring it back. I am not a big fan of grading Personal Fouls as something that shouldn't cancel a TD.

2. You said "push in the back." I definitely think if it is just a push in the back way out of the play, it is something that you would discuss with the player, not flag. Now, if he takes out an unsuspecting player well out of the play, you should flag that as a PF for unnecessary roughness. More than likely, you are right to flag the action.

[Robert Goodman]

Much as I advocate finding such a foul as having occurred after the score, if everybody around saw you throw the flag and that the TD had not occurred yet, then you've got to enforce it as a live ball foul.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Much as I advocate finding such a foul as having occurred after the score, if everybody around saw you throw the flag and that the TD had not occurred yet, then you've got to enforce it as a live ball foul.

Perhaps I've been taught something incorrectly ... but I was under the impression that a live-ball PF is treated as a dead-ball PF. If that's not the case, what's the enforcement spot?

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Perhaps I've been taught something incorrectly ... but I was under the impression that a live-ball PF is treated as a dead-ball PF. If that's not the case, what's the enforcement spot?

A live ball foul PF is not enforced as a dead ball foul. The enforcement spot depends on who did it and what type of play. In this play we are discussing it would be enforced from the spot of the foul, since it was a foul by the team in possession behind the basic spot (basic spot in this case would have been the end of the run).

A live ball PF is enforced just like any other live ball fouls like a block in the back or a hold or a facemask,etc...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Perhaps I've been taught something incorrectly ... but I was under the impression that a live-ball PF is treated as a dead-ball PF. If that's not the case, what's the enforcement spot?

You were taught incorrectly. A dead-ball PF is enforced like other dead-ball fouls, from the succeeding spot. A live-ball PF is enforced like most other live-ball fouls, under all-but-one.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You were taught incorrectly. A dead-ball PF is enforced like other dead-ball fouls, from the succeeding spot. A live-ball PF is enforced like most other live-ball fouls, under all-but-one.

Thanks!

[bisonlj]

I am a little surprised by what I'm reading here. Everything I've heard from officials better than me (including those who work at higher levels) is to make this kind of foul a dead ball foul if at all possible (score or no score). If he commits the foul so far before the ball became dead, you have no choice but to make it a live ball foul. But more often than not, it is so close to the ball becoming dead that it could considered a dead ball foul with no issues from anyone. Do you all really call this that closely and make this kind of play of a live ball foul? If you do, I suggest you re-think that approach if you try to move up to higher levels.