When does travel occur?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the drop is all part of the original motion, or close enough that one can imagine such, treat it as an errant pass, and see what happens next. If the motion clearly stops, and there is a discernible pause, followed by a deliberate drop straight to the floor, it sounds like the start of a dribble to me, which means that it would be a travel.

"Discernible pause"? Really? Dude, now you're making sh!te up. (And: this isn't baseball.)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mbyron

"Discernible pause"? Really? Dude, now you're making sh!te up. (And: this isn't baseball.)

I think it's time for a poll

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

"Discernible pause"? Really? Dude, now you're making sh!te up. (And: this isn't baseball.)

Yeah, kinda like calling a balk. Let me put it another way. A1 lifts the pivot and starts to step into the pass, but A2 has cut the other way and the pass is no longer available. Often you see A1 try to stop, but the ball comes out anyway. The decision to be made here is whether it was a pass or a fumble. But, if the motion obviously stops, A1 hesitates, then obviously, deliberately drops the ball straight to the floor, no way does this seem to me to be that he "threw, batted, or rolled the ball to another player."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, kinda like calling a balk. Let me put it another way. A1 lifts the pivot and starts to step into the pass, but A2 has cut the other way and the pass is no longer available. Often you see A1 try to stop, but the ball comes out anyway. The decision to be made here is whether it was a pass or a fumble. But, if the motion obviously stops, A1 hesitates, then obviously, deliberately drops the ball straight to the floor, no way does this seem to me to be that he "threw, batted, or rolled the ball to another player."

And no way I call a travel without him touching the ball again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, kinda like calling a balk. Let me put it another way. A1 lifts the pivot and starts to step into the pass, but A2 has cut the other way and the pass is no longer available. Often you see A1 try to stop, but the ball comes out anyway. The decision to be made here is whether it was a pass or a fumble. But, if the motion obviously stops, A1 hesitates, then obviously, deliberately drops the ball straight to the floor, no way does this seem to me to be that he "threw, batted, or rolled the ball to another player."

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And no way I call a travel without him touching the ball again.

Yep, nothing specifies that the thrower needs to know his recipient, nor throw it directly to a player. I just don't understand the reluctance to let this play out.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, nothing specifies that the thrower needs to know his recipient, nor throw it directly to a player. I just don't understand the reluctance to let this play out.

In reality, this is much ado about very little. In most travel/illegal dribble cases like this, the violator does touch the ball again immediately. The reason for the reluctance is that nothing in the rules states that a second touch is necessary to define a dribble.

[just another ref]

A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. About this time he slips on a wet spot and crashes to the floor. He doesn't touch the ball after the second bounce. All other players are still on the other side of the division line. Is this a violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. About this time he slips on a wet spot and crashes to the floor. He doesn't touch the ball after the second bounce. All other players are still on the other side of the division line. Is this a violation?

It depends, of course, on whether you judge that 2nd bounce to be a dribble. Personally, if he doesn't touch it, I'd be inclined to let it play out until the rules tell me I can't.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. ...

End of the play right there...my whistle is blowing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. About this time he slips on a wet spot and crashes to the floor. He doesn't touch the ball after the second bounce. All other players are still on the other side of the division line. Is this a violation?

No.

Unlike you, I can't read minds. I couldn't be sure that slip might have had something to do with losing control of the ball after the second bounce. I also couldn't be sure that A1 wasn't trying to leave a high bounce for a trailer.

I learned a long time ago to try to call what I can explain. And I don't like 'splainin' that I thought something might have happened. I like to try to call only things that I'm sure of. And because I can't read minds, I'm not 100% sure what A1 was trying to do with the 2-handed second bounce. But hey, that's just me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In reality, this is much ado about very little. In most travel/illegal dribble cases like this, the violator does touch the ball again immediately. The reason for the reluctance is that nothing in the rules states that a second touch is necessary to define a dribble.

You're correct, it's not required in the rules (I reluctantly admit to liking the FIBA definition better here), but nothing requires it to be called, either. It's judgment, and frankly, as long as I can, within the rules, justify playing on, I'm going that route anyway. IOW, if I'm not absolutely positive it's a violation (dribble in this case), I'm not going to call it and the only way I can be absolutely positive it's a dribble is when A1 is the first to touch the ball in this scenario.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And no way I call a travel without him touching the ball again.

+1....but I'd like to be there when somebody does. And if there's a God, it'll be in a State Final with a ton of experienced witnesses there. That way we can read about it here the next day.