OOB intentional foul questions

[Mark Padgett]

NF rules. If, on a throw-in, a defender reaches across the boundary and fouls the inbounder who has the ball, it's an intentional foul by rule. What about these situations - is the call still automatically intentional if B1 fouls A1?

1) A1 has stepped OOB to make the throw-in but the official has not yet given him the ball and A1 is fouled by B1

2) A1 has the ball OOB and is holding it across the boundary line over the court and B1 fouls him on a part of his arm that is (2a) over the court or (2b) not over the court

3) team B scores and A1 "gathers" the ball to take it OOB but delays going OOB but the official determines the ball is at the disposal of team A and has started a 5 second count when A1 is fouled by B1

4) here's a real doozy - A1 has the ball OOB and B1 reaches over the boundary and simultaneously fouls A1 on the shoulder with one hand and slaps the ball with the other - do you call the intentional personal foul or the technical foul or both - guys, if this ever happens in your game, make sure you post the video

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF rules. If, on a throw-in, a defender reaches across the boundary and fouls the inbounder who has the ball, it's an intentional foul by rule. What about these situations - is the call still automatically intentional if B1 fouls A1?

1) A1 has stepped OOB to make the throw-in but the official has not yet given him the ball and A1 is fouled by B1

2) A1 has the ball OOB and is holding it across the boundary line over the court and B1 fouls him on a part of his arm that is (2a) over the court or (2b) not over the court

3) team B scores and A1 "gathers" the ball to take it OOB but delays going OOB but the official determines the ball is at the disposal of team A and has started a 5 second count when A1 is fouled by B1

4) here's a real doozy - A1 has the ball OOB and B1 reaches over the boundary and simultaneously fouls A1 on the shoulder with one hand and slaps the ball with the other - do you call the intentional personal foul or the technical foul or both - guys, if this ever happens in your game, make sure you post the video

1. This is a foul during a dead ball period. Whether the contact is inbounds or OOB, it is subject to the same standard. The official must deem the contact to be at the level of an intentional or flagrant foul or is must be ignored.

2a. Common foul. The defender did not break the boundary plane.
2b. Intentional foul by rule.

3. Common foul as in 2a. Same reason: the defender did not break the boundary plane. We don't know who will be the thrower in this situation. It could be the player currently holding the ball, but it may not. This foul is no different from any other foul committed inbounds during a throw-in.

4. Technical foul. When a player simultaneously infringes two rules, apply the harsher of the two penalties as a sanction.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4. Technical foul. When a player simultaneously infringes two rules, apply the harsher of the two penalties as a sanction.

There seems to be an exception to this concept.
1. DOG warning for Team B already on the books.
2. B1 reaches across the plane and slaps A1's (the thrower) arm. My understanding is you would go with the player inentional here rather than the team technical. Which penalty is more harsh is, I suppose, debatable due to the fact that B1 actually gets assessed the intentional if you go that route.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There seems to be an exception to this concept.
1. DOG warning for Team B already on the books.
2. B1 reaches across the plane and slaps A1's (the thrower) arm. My understanding is you would go with the player inentional here rather than the team technical. Which penalty is more harsh is, I suppose, debatable due to the fact that B1 actually gets assessed the intentional if you go that route.

I don't think that one can consider prior actions when applying this principle.
So it is just a case of DOG warning vs. IPF.
One can't say that a play is an IPF one time, but a TF the 2nd time. That is why the rule is written as it is.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3. [snip] We don't know who will be the thrower in this situation. It could be the player currently holding the ball, but it may not. This foul is no different from any other foul committed inbounds during a throw-in.

4. Technical foul. When a player simultaneously infringes two rules, apply the harsher of the two penalties as a sanction.

3. What I left above is irrelevant. The foul occurred on the inbounds side of the boundary line. As such, it doesn't matter if it is the thrower or not.

4. There is no rules basis for that conclusion aside from requring the official to determine which occured first. By rule, if they were simultaneous, both are to be penalized. That said, I hope the official would pick one or the other...but there is no rules guidance on which to pick.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

4. There is no rules basis for that conclusion

Sure there is. It is just in the FIFA Laws of the Game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4. Technical foul. When a player simultaneously infringes two rules, apply the harsher of the two penalties as a sanction.

Disagree. Penalize the "total" action.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Disagree. Penalize the "total" action.

So what do you mean by that? Are you saying to penalize both the IPF and the TF as they amount to the "total action"?

Are you really going to assess two fouls on this play?

You are aware that my statement was not for the case of a boundary plane warning and then contact with either the thrower or the ball in his hands, right?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So what do you mean by that? Are you saying to penalize both the IPF and the TF as they amount to the "total action"?

Are you really going to assess two fouls on this play?

You are aware that my statement was not for the case of a boundary plane warning and then contact with either the thrower or the ball in his hands, right?

The "total action" was the foul. Enforce that. No T in this instance for a second delay violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The "total action" was the foul. Enforce that. No T in this instance for a second delay violation.

Okay, now I'm certain that you didn't read the OP properly. We aren't talking about a 2nd delay warning. We are talking about contacting the ball while it is in the hands of the thrower.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

4) here's a real doozy - A1 has the ball OOB and B1 reaches over the boundary and simultaneously fouls A1 on the shoulder with one hand and slaps the ball with the other - do you call the intentional personal foul or the technical foul or both - guys, if this ever happens in your game, make sure you post the video

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Okay, now I'm certain that you didn't read the OP properly. We aren't talking about a 2nd delay warning. We are talking about contacting the ball while it is in the hands of the thrower.

I thought we'd moved on and were talking about reaching across and slapping the thrower's arm, after a warning had been issued.

[ncaaref2001]

Does anyone have a rule reference on 2a?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. This is a foul during a dead ball period. Whether the contact is inbounds or OOB, it is subject to the same standard. The official must deem the contact to be at the level of an intentional or flagrant foul or is must be ignored.

2a. Common foul. The defender did not break the boundary plane.
2b. Intentional foul by rule.

3. Common foul as in 2a. Same reason: the defender did not break the boundary plane. We don't know who will be the thrower in this situation. It could be the player currently holding the ball, but it may not. This foul is no different from any other foul committed inbounds during a throw-in.

4. Technical foul. When a player simultaneously infringes two rules, apply the harsher of the two penalties as a sanction.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4. Technical foul. When a player simultaneously infringes two rules, apply the harsher of the two penalties as a sanction.

As already stated, you have no rules basis for that conclusion. Pick one act to penalize. It's that simple.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ncaaref2001

Does anyone have a rule reference on 2a?

ncaaref is bringing up this 7 month old post because this is one of the questions on the NCAAW's test this year.

And, I agree with him, that it doesn't seem to be covered in the NCAA book (or, that the rule doesn't distinguish between a foul "in bounds" or "oob" on an inbounder)

[ncaaref2001]

QUOTE=bob jenkins;697179]ncaaref is bringing up this 7 month old post because this is one of the questions on the NCAAW's test this year.

And, I agree with him, that it doesn't seem to be covered in the NCAA book (or, that the rule doesn't distinguish between a foul "in bounds" or "oob" on an inbounder)[/QUOTE]

Exactly Bob and as stated in Rule 4.29.d5 5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. (Women) This act shall
also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary.

It is really not clear because the first part does not say that the defender reached through the boundary plane and the second part says that there should be a warning issued for reaching through the boundary plane. It needs to be much more clear.