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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 12:49pm
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Intentional Foul?

Late game fouling situation. A1 reaches for B1 as he's going by and grabs his jersey from behind. I call intentional foul. Coach didn't have a big problem with it but said "he fouled him before that."

That got me to thinking. If I had called a foul for , say, a whack on the arm and then the defender subsequently grabbed and yanked the jersey from behind, is it still an intentional foul?
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 12:56pm
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Originally Posted by Spence View Post
Late game fouling situation. A1 reaches for B1 as he's going by and grabs his jersey from behind. I call intentional foul. Coach didn't have a big problem with it but said "he fouled him before that."

That got me to thinking. If I had called a foul for , say, a whack on the arm and then the defender subsequently grabbed and yanked the jersey from behind, is it still an intentional foul?
I generally wouldn't have an INT for that subsequent grab, but I would tell A1 "nothing after the fact". But if A1 went down to the ground, I would upgrade the first foul to an INT, and only report that one. I would not have a common foul and a dead ball INT. Edit: I guess clarification is needed for some: it is highly likely not going to be two fouls here.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 12:59pm
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The implied question here seems to be: should this be a make-up call?

If you correctly passed on the initial contact, then there's nothing to make up.

If you missed a foul before, but you had a genuine intentional foul, call the IF.

That said, merely grabbing the shirt is not necessarily an intentional foul. The crucial (relevant) concept is neutralizing an opponent's obvious advantage.

And make-up calls are always a bad idea. Two wrongs...
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:00pm
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I had a game saturday when I wanted a Intentional called. My guard went by the defender and he reached out and grabbed the back of his jersey. The explanation I got was that its late in the game and he was just trying to foul. I left it at that. Oh well..we hit the two free throws went up 5 and won.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:00pm
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By the book you would have a technical foul.
Rule 4.19.5 . . . A technical foul is:
(c) An intentional or flagrant foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter.

I don't think he would have grab his shirt had the first foul been called.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
I wouldn't have an INT for that subsequent grab, but I would tell A1 "nothing after the fact".
I would pass on the subsequent action also.

However, 4-19-1 Note addresses intentional and flagrant fouls after the ball has become dead. If you desire to call an intentional foul, by rule I believe it would be an intentional technical foul.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:02pm
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Originally Posted by Scratch85 View Post
I would pass on the subsequent action also.

However, 4-19-1 Note addresses intentional and flagrant fouls after the ball has become dead. If you desire to call an intentional foul, by rule I believe it would be an intentional technical foul.
Not if you didn't call the first one.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:03pm
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Originally Posted by wbrown View Post
By the book you would have a technical foul.
Rule 4.19.5 . . . A technical foul is:
(c) An intentional or flagrant foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter.

I don't think he would have grab his shirt had the first foul been called.
You would not have a technical foul here as you are read the rule wrong. A contact foul during a live ball will not be technical.

By the book you have an intentional (if anything).
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
Late game fouling situation. A1 reaches for B1 as he's going by and grabs his jersey from behind. I call intentional foul. Coach didn't have a big problem with it but said "he fouled him before that."

That got me to thinking. If I had called a foul for , say, a whack on the arm and then the defender subsequently grabbed and yanked the jersey from behind, is it still an intentional foul?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Not if you didn't call the first one.
Agreed. My response was to the part with the ? after it in the OP.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:04pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Not if you didn't call the first one.
Exactly.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:05pm
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The orignal post asked if he had call a contact foul followed by an intentional grab of the jersey (intentional foul). The second foul would be a dead ball intentional foul which would result in a Technical foul.
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
The implied question here seems to be: should this be a make-up call?

If you correctly passed on the initial contact, then there's nothing to make up.

If you missed a foul before, but you had a genuine intentional foul, call the IF.

That said, merely grabbing the shirt is not necessarily an intentional foul. The crucial (relevant) concept is neutralizing an opponent's obvious advantage.

And make-up calls are always a bad idea. Two wrongs...
Nothing implied. Not looking to make up any call.

Does the subsequent action warrant an intentional foul?
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:08pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
You would not have a technical foul here as you are read the rule wrong. A contact foul during a live ball will not be technical.

By the book you have an intentional (if anything).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
If I had called a foul for , say, a whack on the arm (Tweet - DEAD BALL)
and then the defender subsequently grabbed and yanked the jersey from behind, is it still an intentional foul?
Dead ball contact should be ignored unless it is flagrant or intentional.

wbrown got it right, well except for the (.) instead of (-) for rules references
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:15pm
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Let me add some minor clarifications to my scenario.

Defender is trying to foul. With left hand he tries for a steal but whacks the kid across the arm. At almost the same time and in order to ensure he fouls the kid he uses his other arm to grab the jersey and yanks it - obvious intentional. I'm blowing the whistle for the first foul while the grab is taking place. No delay.

Do I ignore the intentional and only call the arm grab?
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Old Wed Jan 21, 2009, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
Let me add some minor clarifications to my scenario.

Defender is trying to foul. With left hand he tries for a steal but whacks the kid across the arm. At almost the same time and in order to ensure he fouls the kid he uses his other arm to grab the jersey and yanks it - obvious intentional. I'm blowing the whistle for the first foul while the grab is taking place. No delay.

Do I ignore the intentional and only call the arm grab?
Yes ignore the grab -- just say something to the kid along the lines of "make a play for the basketball" or something like that.
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