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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 08:48am
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Intentional Foul Help

Hello everyone,

I attended my local assc. meeting last night and one of the topics for discussion was the aspect of intentional fouls as it relates to the game.

It was stated that...
A) If a player is trying to strategically foul (stop clock or get into bonus situation) and is not going for the ball (i.e. instead of trying to steal the ball – just grasping the player or jersey to commit a foul) then it should be ruled intentional…Regardless of how much contact their actually was.

B) As with the above situation, if a coach is screaming “foul them, foul them” and they commit the same act or some other foul and not playing for the ball – this must be deemed intentional.

I was always thought that the purpose of an intentional foul is to use as a “tool” in our lovely little “toolbox” much like technical fouls or flagrant fouls. However, they are stating that if ANY foul was to be committed as in “b” or if the player grabs the body or jersey at all it needs to be intentional. In which commonly we would have just called it a common foul…

These players see this at NCAA games frequently. I have seen some lately myself. I wanted to know everyone’s opinion on this and whether or not does the amount of contact actually designate an “intentional foul”.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 08:53am
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I say yes it is intentional in both situations. The defensive player was not playing the ball. On a side note, just yelling foul does not make a foul intentional in my area. We just got a state memo explaining that. Fouling on purpose is definitely part of the game, but the intentional foul needs to be called so that players are coached to foul apporpriately.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 09:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Hello everyone,

I attended my local assc. meeting last night and one of the topics for discussion was the aspect of intentional fouls as it relates to the game.

It was stated that...
A) If a player is trying to strategically foul (stop clock or get into bonus situation) and is not going for the ball (i.e. instead of trying to steal the ball – just grasping the player or jersey to commit a foul) then it should be ruled intentional…Regardless of how much contact their actually was.
I agree. These are not "normal defensive maneuvers." Instead, they are designed *solely* to stop the clock and should be intentional. You can *also* have an intentional foul if there's excessive contact, but this is a different issue.

Quote:
B) As with the above situation, if a coach is screaming “foul them, foul them” and they commit the same act or some other foul and not playing for the ball – this must be deemed intentional.
I disagree here. That statement was in the POE one year (a few years ago), but was then rescinded. It's the actions of the player that make the foul an I or not, not the words of the coach.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 12:15pm
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I also agree that both the situations you described are intentional fouls. Strategic fouling in end game situations is part of the game, but they need to do it correctly.

As Bob said, the coach screaming "foul them" is not in and of itself justification to call any subsequent foul intentional. That said, it should serve as a reminder to pay close attention to make sure any resulting action by the player isn't intentional by definition.

OK, let's change the scenario a little:
Boys JV game last week, mid 2nd quarter. A2 cuts across the lane, B2 guarding him is unable to keep up and grabs the back of A2's jersey with both hands clearly slowing him down.

What's your call?

Mine was an intentional foul on B2.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 12:17pm
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Had I been there, I would have said, "nice call partner."
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor
OK, let's change the scenario a little:
Boys JV game last week, mid 2nd quarter. A2 cuts across the lane, B2 guarding him is unable to keep up and grabs the back of A2's jersey with both hands clearly slowing him down.

What's your call?

Mine was an intentional foul on B2.
Definitely intentional!
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 01:59pm
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Absolutely its an intentional. Mid 2nd quarter or last minute of the game. Consistancy is the key.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 02:25pm
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I agree with Junker

Had I been there, I would have said, "nice call partner."
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Hello everyone,

I attended my local assc. meeting last night and one of the topics for discussion was the aspect of intentional fouls as it relates to the game.

It was stated that...
A) If a player is trying to strategically foul (stop clock or get into bonus situation) and is not going for the ball (i.e. instead of trying to steal the ball – just grasping the player or jersey to commit a foul) then it should be ruled intentional…Regardless of how much contact their actually was.

B) As with the above situation, if a coach is screaming “foul them, foul them” and they commit the same act or some other foul and not playing for the ball – this must be deemed intentional.

I was always thought that the purpose of an intentional foul is to use as a “tool” in our lovely little “toolbox” much like technical fouls or flagrant fouls. However, they are stating that if ANY foul was to be committed as in “b” or if the player grabs the body or jersey at all it needs to be intentional. In which commonly we would have just called it a common foul…

These players see this at NCAA games frequently. I have seen some lately myself. I wanted to know everyone’s opinion on this and whether or not does the amount of contact actually designate an “intentional foul”.
Pat I disagree with both of these. Fouling at the end of game to prolong the game and give your team a chance to get back in the game has and always will be a legal and strategical tactic used by coaches from now until kingdom come. If you know a team is trying to foul and the coach is even yelling it then just blow the whistle as soon as the player touches him (whether you think he is going for the ball or not) and you won't worry about calling an intentional on the next kid when he comes over just to clobber the kid.

Now I would call it an intentional if team A is throwing the ball in and it looks like Team A is grabbing the worst shooter by the jersey or hugging him up, cause then they are A) trying to send the worst free throw shooter to the line and B) They are trying to do so by preventing the clock from properly starting.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 03:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor
OK, let's change the scenario a little:
Boys JV game last week, mid 2nd quarter. A2 cuts across the lane, B2 guarding him is unable to keep up and grabs the back of A2's jersey with both hands clearly slowing him down.

What's your call?

Mine was an intentional foul on B2.
I don't disagree with the intentional foul called, accept now if you have a similiar thing happen on the other end, it's got to be intentional there too. In the 2nd quarter, there's room for some preventative medicine here. First, it was a great off-ball get (call). Second, you could have walked out of there with a holding call and just tell the player don't do it again. It's a JV game, remember. If he doesn't do it again, problem solved and you didn't have to burn an intentional, slow the game down, get one of the coaches upset, to accomplish it. Likewise, if it does happen again, you can now step up and call it intentional and tell them, I warn you in the first half.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 03:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
Pat I disagree with both of these. Fouling at the end of game to prolong the game and give your team a chance to get back in the game has and always will be a legal and strategical tactic used by coaches from now until kingdom come.
First off, fouling is NOT legal, so please don't say that it is...it may be strategic, but it's not legal...and the key in both of the Op's situations is that the defensive player was NOT making a play on the ball - those types of fouls have got to be called intentional.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 03:21pm
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Originally Posted by Old School1)
I don't disagree with the intentional foul called, accept now if you have a similiar thing happen on the other end, it's got to be intentional there too.

2) In the 2nd quarter, there's room for some preventative medicine here. First, it was a great off-ball get (call). Second, you could have walked out of there with a holding call and just tell the player don't do it again. It's a JV game, remember. If he doesn't do it again, problem solved and you didn't have to burn an intentional, slow the game down, get one of the coaches upset, to accomplish it. Likewise, if it does happen again, you can now step up and call it intentional and tell them, I warn you in the first half.
1) Exactly. That's called officiating consistency.

2) Unfortunately, if you want to be consistent the whole game too, you've just opened up an enormous can of worms. If you don't call the intentional foul for a 2-handed grab of the shirt in the second quarter, then you don't call the intentional foul for the same act at the end of the fourth quarter. And if you warn one player, then you had better be prepared to warn every player on both teams also. I can just see you issuing multi-warnings at the end of a game. "Don't do that, #5". "You, don't do that either, #11". etc., etc.

Btw, worrying about whether a coach is going to be upset or not is never a factor when real officials make a call.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:43am.
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
Pat I disagree with both of these. Fouling at the end of game to prolong the game and give your team a chance to get back in the game has and always will be a legal and strategical tactic used by coaches from now until kingdom come. If you know a team is trying to foul and the coach is even yelling it then just blow the whistle as soon as the player touches him (whether you think he is going for the ball or not) and you won't worry about calling an intentional on the next kid when he comes over just to clobber the kid.
You really should read POE #4 on p69 of this year's rule book. Really!
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Old Tue Dec 05, 2006, 04:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I don't disagree with the intentional foul called, accept now if you have a similiar thing happen on the other end, it's got to be intentional there too. In the 2nd quarter, there's room for some preventative medicine here. First, it was a great off-ball get (call). Second, you could have walked out of there with a holding call and just tell the player don't do it again. It's a JV game, remember. If he doesn't do it again, problem solved and you didn't have to burn an intentional, slow the game down, get one of the coaches upset, to accomplish it. Likewise, if it does happen again, you can now step up and call it intentional and tell them, I warn you in the first half.
I'm not limited to the number of intentional fouls I can call. I'll call them all night if the situation warrants. If officials call intentional fouls consistently, it will actually help keep the game clean and eliminate the cheap stuff, IMO.
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Old Wed Dec 06, 2006, 10:34am
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Unfortunately, if you want to be consistent the whole game too, you've just opened up an enormous can of worms. If you don't call the intentional foul for a 2-handed grab of the shirt in the second quarter, then you don't call the intentional foul for the same act at the end of the fourth quarter. And if you warn one player, then you had better be prepared to warn every player on both teams also. I can just see you issuing multi-warnings at the end of a game. "Don't do that, #5". "You, don't do that either, #11". etc., etc.

BTW, worrying about whether a coach is going to be upset or not is never a factor when real officials make a call.

More terrible advice from the King.
I see that Bob keeps deleting my responses. I responded to this one too but it got deleted. However, he leaves it fair game for you to insult me again and again and again. We'll see how long it takes Bob to delete this one too.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:46am.
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