Substitution and Intentional Foul Questions

[vawils]

Couple of quick questions about situations that came up in recent games:

1. Substitution - Starting the 4th quarter A1 has the throw in and does so properly and takes a shot and B1 rebounds and heads upcourt. During this time some of the crowd is yelling that A only has 4 players - there had been confusion at the A bench starting play with players slow to return to court etc. After the shot A coach must have noticed that they only had 4 players on court and another player just "joins the action" - no reporting etc. I was the lead going down with B1 but saw it as did the trail and center officials. No one blew a whistle. We discussed it at the first dead ball and it was generally agreed that we had blown it by putting the ball back in play with only 4 players on court. Not sure I was comfortable with that but really had no effect on game but probably could or should have given technical right?

2. Intentional foul - A1 has clear break away and is intentionally fouled by B1 during layout. Ball goes in. Do you count the basket plus give 2 free throws plus the ball back to A1? Potential for 6 or 7 point play? Where is throw in spot? In the actual game we had the foul but ball didn't go in but made me wonder.

Thanks for any feedback.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by vawils
Couple of quick questions about situations that came up in recent games:

1. Substitution - Starting the 4th quarter A1 has the throw in and does so properly and takes a shot and B1 rebounds and heads upcourt. During this time some of the crowd is yelling that A only has 4 players - there had been confusion at the A bench starting play with players slow to return to court etc. After the shot A coach must have noticed that they only had 4 players on court and another player just "joins the action" - no reporting etc. I was the lead going down with B1 but saw it as did the trail and center officials. No one blew a whistle. We discussed it at the first dead ball and it was generally agreed that we had blown it by putting the ball back in play with only 4 players on court. Not sure I was comfortable with that but really had no effect on game but probably could or should have given technical right?

I do not think you could really call anything. You did not discover it. Just because they coaches or fans noticed it, does not mean you can do anything about it. You just continue play as if nothing happen. The player if a sub would be legal when play starts anyway. So you should have nothing. Just take your time and make sure you have the right amount of players the next time.

Originally posted by vawils
2. Intentional foul - A1 has clear break away and is intentionally fouled by B1 during layout. Ball goes in. Do you count the basket plus give 2 free throws plus the ball back to A1? Potential for 6 or 7 point play? Where is throw in spot? In the actual game we had the foul but ball didn't go in but made me wonder.

Thanks for any feedback.

All intentional fouls are 2 shots unless a player is fouled attempting a 3 and the shot is unsuccessful. So if the ball goes in, they are always going to get 2 FTSE no matter what. Then the ball is going to be put at the spot in where the foul occurred. So in this case the ball should be put on the end line. And yes there is a possibility for a 6 or 7 point play.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

I agree with Rut. I'm not calling anything because a team had confusion and only had 4 on the floor. Now, if he runs in under his basket and gets an easy one, we have a different story.

Intentional foul - count the basket, 2 FTs, ball OOB at the closest spot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by vawils

1. Substitution - Starting the 4th quarter A1 has the throw in and does so properly and takes a shot and B1 rebounds and heads upcourt. During this time some of the crowd is yelling that A only has 4 players - there had been confusion at the A bench starting play with players slow to return to court etc. After the shot A coach must have noticed that they only had 4 players on court and another player just "joins the action" - no reporting etc. I was the lead going down with B1 but saw it as did the trail and center officials. No one blew a whistle. We discussed it at the first dead ball and it was generally agreed that we had blown it by putting the ball back in play with only 4 players on court. Not sure I was comfortable with that but really had no effect on game but probably could or should have given technical right?

By rule, it's supposed to be an automatic technical foul charged to team A as soon as their 5th. player came on the floor. The technical foul is for not having all of their player return to the court at approximately the same time following an intermission. Once a team responds, all of the their players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

Yes, you shouldn't have started play with only 4 A players on the floor, but once you did, it's a T when the 5th player comes on later. The covering rule is NFHS 10-1-9 and the play is similar to case book play 10.1.9.

[AirForceDude]

Generally, officials accept the catch 22 and accept that if wrong number of players are on the court don't inbound the ball until it's fixed.
However, what if it occurs during a resumption of play situation? If you place the ball at team A's disposal and only 4 players make it on the court, sounds like a textbook T to me.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by JRutledge
...I do not think you could really call anything. You did not discover it.

Huh?

You would not call anything in this situation? Wow, sure sounds like a T based on the rules as I know them. If anyting at least for not having all players return to the floor at the same time. Hmmmm, you may want to brush up on this one guys.

[IREFU2]

Hmm, 4 players on the floor, sound like the opposite official didnt count all the players. That is another communication error. When my partner is administering the throw in, I make sure there are 10 players on the court. This is a good pre-game topic. Its preventive officiating that keeps the game going smooth. As far as the intentional, score the basket, administer 2 free throws and the ball is out at half court, opposite the table.

[golfdesigner]

Originally posted by IREFU2
Hmm, 4 players on the floor, sound like the opposite official didnt count all the players. That is another communication error. When my partner is administering the throw in, I make sure there are 10 players on the court. This is a good pre-game topic. Its preventive officiating that keeps the game going smooth. As far as the intentional, score the basket, administer 2 free throws and the ball is out at half court, opposite the table.

I agree with everything right up to the half court opposite the table, the inbounds spot is nearest the foul. It should be a spot throw-in along the baseline since the foul occurred during a "layout" [oops] I think we mean layup.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

By rule, it's supposed to be an automatic technical foul charged to team A as soon as their 5th. player came on the floor. The technical foul is for not having all of their player return to the court at approximately the same time following an intermission. Once a team responds, all of the their players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

Yes, you shouldn't have started play with only 4 A players on the floor, but once you did, it's a T when the 5th player comes on later. The covering rule is NFHS 10-1-9 and the play is similar to case book play 10.1.9.

Jurassic is right on this one. It's a T, but I disagree with one minor point. I believe that you T them as soon as you notice that they are playing with 4. The rule does not require that you wait until the 5th player tries to re-enter the court. (10-1-9) It is only an example in the case book in which the 5th player runs onto the court to catch a pass.

As for the intentional foul on a made basket. Yep, count it and award 2FTs plus the ball at the nearest spot.
I had this happen in a game on Friday with the score 53-50 and 8 seconds left.
The team with the lead breaks the press and the opponent is running back desperate to stop A1 from making an uncontested lay-in. B1 arrives just as the shot is taken and shoves A1 in the small of his back with two hands. Easy intentional and the try was successful.
Game finished 56-50.