Unusual and weird situation resulting in ejection

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by representing

Look, I understand that I should have T'd him up. I had emailed the Rule Interpreter of our chapter and he told me that it really isn't called in this chapter, or many other chapters in Pennsylvania. He also said that besides that fact, I did do it correctly to his knowledge, but that he would look it up this weekend and let me know.

As for CE, the rule book does not say anything about it having to be only in bonus situations. It covers all unmerited situations. While the intent was for bonus/non-bonus situations, I did do it correctly to say that those FT attempts do not count.

Ignorance compounded by arrogance is a dangerous combination that will keep you in hot water. Time to add a little humility and some serious book learning to your personality profile.
Good luck with that...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by representing

Look, I understand that I should have T'd him up. I had emailed the Rule Interpreter of our chapter and he told me that it really isn't called in this chapter, or many other chapters in Pennsylvania. He also said that besides that fact, I did do it correctly to his knowledge, but that he would look it up this weekend and let me know.

As for CE, the rule book does not say anything about it having to be only in bonus situations. It covers all unmerited situations. While the intent was for bonus/non-bonus situations, I did do it correctly to say that those FT attempts do not count.

My God, man, you were wrong and simply won't admit it. You simply don't get to define "unmerited free throws" however you want. Words mean things.

[representing]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

My God, man, you were wrong and simply won't admit it. You simply don't get to define "unmerited free throws" however you want. Words mean things.

I'm not defining anything, it defines itself!

let me break it down:

definition of merit: something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation (dictionary.com)

in case you (and the some of the others) skipped 1st grade, when you add "un" in front of a word, it means the opposite or not. Hence, unmerited means opposite of or NOT deserved or justified a reward or commendation.

In this case, the free throws were not justified or deserved because no one else besides a coach, player or bench personnel (i.e. trainer) can receive a technical foul. A father (or any other spectators) or officiating crew on table cannot be given a technical foul.

REFERENCES:
Technical fouls: 4-19-5 and 10-1 thru 5
Correctable error on unmerited FT: 2-10-1b

Putting all of this together, it was WRONG of me to T up the father and scorekeeper thinking he was an AC. The FTs were unmerited, because the Technical, which resulted in both FTs, was given to someone who cannot be legally given a technical foul. Because he cannot be given a technical foul, it cannot be official in the book. End result, ejection to that person and continue play at POI.

Can't get any simpler than that. I wasted too much time getting all of this together when I should be sleeping right now, so I'm logging off for the night.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by representing

I'm not defining anything, it defines itself!

let me break it down:

definition of merit: something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation (dictionary.com)

in case you (and the some of the others) skipped 1st grade, when you add "un" in front of a word, it means the opposite or not. Hence, unmerited means opposite of or NOT deserved or justified a reward or commendation.

In this case, the free throws were not justified or deserved because no one else besides a coach, player or bench personnel (i.e. trainer) can receive a technical foul. A father (or any other spectators) or officiating crew on table cannot be given a technical foul.

REFERENCES:
Technical fouls: 4-19-5 and 10-1 thru 5
Correctable error on unmerited FT: 2-10-1b

Putting all of this together, it was WRONG of me to T up the father and scorekeeper thinking he was an AC. The FTs were unmerited, because the Technical, which resulted in both FTs, was given to someone who cannot be legally given a technical foul. Because he cannot be given a technical foul, it cannot be official in the book. End result, ejection to that person and continue play at POI.

Can't get any simpler than that. I wasted too much time getting all of this together when I should be sleeping right now, so I'm logging off for the night.

Unmerited means what the NFHS says it means, not what Webster or you say it means. I'm wasting my time with you, you know everything.

Well, except how to penalize a habitual flopper, apparently.

Oh, and that a technical can (by rule) be called against someone in the stands, if necessary.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by representing

1) Look, I understand that I should have T'd him up. I had emailed the Rule Interpreter of our chapter and he told me that it really isn't called in this chapter, or many other chapters in Pennsylvania. He also said that besides that fact, I did do it correctly to his knowledge, but that he would look it up this weekend and let me know.

2) As for CE, the rule book does not say anything about it having to be only in bonus situations. It covers all unmerited situations. While the intent was for bonus/non-bonus situations, I did do it correctly to say that those FT attempts do not count.

1) I have too much respect for rules interpreters country-wide to EVER believe you could find one ANYWHERE to agree that the mess YOU created was called correctly. I call boolsh!t.

2) A whole bunch of very rules-knowledgable officials have just told you that you are completely wrong. Yet you continue to insist that you called the play correctly by rule. Un-freaking-believable!

I'm really not sure why you posted in the first place. If it was to get some honest feedback, then why won't you listen to the unanimous assessment of what you did wrong? And if you thought that you were going to get agreement or sympathy for the mess that you caused, you posted in the wrong place. Next time, go to Dr. Ruth. She's the one to ask for advice when you've just screwed someone.

You have one heckuva lot to learn. And you'll never learn a damn thing until you recognize that you have one heckuva lot to learn.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by representing

1) in case you (and the some of the others) skipped 1st grade....

2) In this case, the free throws were not justified or deserved because no one else besides a coach, player or bench personnel (i.e. trainer) can receive a technical foul. A father (or any other spectators) or officiating crew on table cannot be given a technical foul.

1) Telling.....n'uff said.

2) This is for new officials who might mistakenly think that there's even a kernel of truth hidden somewhere in those 2 sentences. See NFHS rule 2-8-1 which states "The official shall penalize unsporting conduct by a coach, player, substitute, attendant or follower. In the NOTE underneath that, you will find "The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game." And in case book play 2.8.1 you can find this statement in the RULING- It is significant that the word used is "may". This gives permission but does not in any way imply that officials must call technical fouls on TEAM FOLLOWERS OR SUPPORTERS for unsporting act. There is a lot of additional germane information contained in the rule and case play. You should learn it so that you can properly apply it...and avoid a mess like the one representing caused. And btw, I personally doubt very much that the NFHS rules makers ever issued anything that would infer that a father coming on to the court to check on his injured son/daughter had just committed an unsporting act and his child's team should be penalized for for it. I also doubt that there's any rules interpreter anywhere that isn't aware of that rule and case play.

[bigdogrunnin]

representing, just what exactly are YOU representing? The "I'm an idiot, don't like to read the rulebook, and instead make up a bunch of stupid crap about the rules so I can make myself look better in spite of a royal and complete screw up" guy?

WOW!!!

You have got to be kidding, right?? I don't even need to post what you did wrong, that has already been covered in nauseating detail. What makes me even more sick is that you refuse to admit you kicked it, from START to FINISH!!!

Look, EVERY official has been there. EVERY ONE OF US has royally screwed the pooch. Some of us more than a couple times (do I dare admit I have done it). Suck it up, LEARN FROM IT, and sure as He!! make sure it doesn't happen again.

To quote Jurassic . . . "nuff said."

[asdf]

You stepped in a pile of dung, tried to clean it off with a rag full of dung and still think there's no dung on your shoe.

Time to re-take the class again Sparky.

[representing]

Fine, I've messed up. I'm moving on now, have a good day, mate.

[representing]

Just to let you guys know, and I'm not trying to start up any arguments. The rule interpreter from the league I ref for has contacted someone from PIAA regarding the play and he, too, said the same thing. Besides f*cking up with not recognizing that it was the scorekeeper who came out onto the court with the coach and trainer, I did it correctly by canceling the FT attempts and retracting the illegally-given technical fouls.

'Nuff said.

[bradfordwilkins]

Why was the technical foul considered illegal?

[representing]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Why was the technical foul considered illegal?

I may have used the wrong term in my last post, but the table officiating crew cannot be given a T. If the referees on the court have a problem with anyone at the table, they can be removed from their duty and not exactly ejected from the gym, or you can eject them altogether.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by representing

Just to let you guys know, and I'm not trying to start up any arguments. The rule interpreter from the league I ref for has contacted someone from PIAA regarding the play and he, too, said the same thing. Besides f*cking up with not recognizing that it was the scorekeeper who came out onto the court with the coach and trainer, I did it correctly by canceling the FT attempts and retracting the illegally-given technical fouls.

'Nuff said.

Boolsh!t.

There's no rules justification to cancel the free throws after they were taken.

It wasn't a correctable error and there isn't any other rules justification that will allow you to go back and fix YOUR mistake, There isn't a competent rules interpreter anywhere that would ever agree with your nonsense.

Lah me......
Feel free to continue to think that you got that part of the play right. It's a waste of time for anybody on here to try to help you become a better official anyway imo. You already think that you know everything.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Boolsh!t.

There's no rules justification to cancel the free throws after they were taken.

It wasn't a correctable error and there isn't any other rules justification that will allow you to go back and fix YOUR mistake, There isn't a competent rules interpreter anywhere that would ever agree with your nonsense.

Lah me......
Feel free to continue to think that you got that part of the play right. It's a waste of time for anybody on here to try to help you become a better official anyway imo. You already think that you know everything.

JaR. I'm trying to respect you but you're constant "bool****" is making me respect you even less.

I've told you (and others) that I have admitted it was my fault. I even said that i apologized to the coach about it. And it was my fault for not at least warning the player to stop flopping.

And when have I ever said "I know it all"? I don't. I got on this forum to learn more, but it seems that no matter what message boards I go to, there will always be guys like you just waiting to prey on the next "noobie" official to convince him/her to hang up the whistle. I will never hang up my whistle. I want to be a damn good official, so I come to you guys to help me out.

I do know that, at least in Pennsylvania, this would have been done the same way by many officials. I've told this situation I had to several of my buddies who have done State tournaments in Pennsylvania and they all said pretty much the same thing. I f*cked up because I didn't realize that it was the scorekeeper doing that before I T'ed him up, but I did take care of it correctly.

[icallfouls]

In regard to the flopping that happened so frequently by the same player.

Someone suggested a warning. Try that, it is useful.
Consider calling a blocking foul. Then call it again. The player will soon be departing.

I agree that a T is certainly an option, but at the highest levels this is not called. So I would say that is a bit extreme.

Lastly, review the rule book and casebook in greater detail. Misapplication of the rules is on you. I have reason to suspect that you knew you messed up and tried to explain it to your rules interpreter so as to minimize your culpability.

Officials get better when they recognize the errors they make and eliminate them from their game. Hit the Rule Book and these types of errors will become a thing of the past. You have basically wasted your first 6 years by not knowing the rules better. Your future is in your hands.