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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 08:17pm
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Unusual and weird situation resulting in ejection

Boy's Freshmen during a 3-game Junior High night.

Blue 2 was flopping all night, and hardly any contact is made (he would flop when the shooter would be a foot or two away from him) and we wouldn't call anything, not even a block because no contact would be made until both players would be on the ground.

Well, it would be the 4th or 5th time he flopped, and just like the other times, the shooter would go down after the shot to make sure he doesn't step on the flopper. This time, however, the shooter injures his wrist when falling down. I call the coach over and two other guys came with him, the trainer and one other person who I thought was an AC.

Coach asked "what, NO FOUL?!" and I would respond with "Coach, there was no contact". Then this third guy snickered/laughed at my response in a cocky way so I whacked him with a T (thinking he was an AC). Go to the table, report the T, then administered two free throws. Then it gets weird.

After FT'er misses both T FT, my partner, who was talking to the HC of the team I just whacked, calls me over. HC tells me "I have no ACs, he was the scorekeeper and he is the father of the player that got injured".

This is what I did which I believe to be correct. Since ball was never put back into play, this is a correctable error situation. I wiped out the technical since only Bench personnel, coaches and players can get technical fouls. I told the scorekeeper of both teams (someone took over when the father left the table) to not have any indication of the two FT being taken, even though both were missed. I also wiped out the indirect to the HC. I then said to the AD, who was near the table, that I want that father ejected from the gym because of his snickering at me when he was already violating two other rules, leaving the table and being an ineligible person to go onto the court. Then we continued the game with the POI since ball was in play when I stopped it due to the injury.

Let's the comments begin, please...

Added comment: BTW, this was my first ejection in the 6 years I have been a basketball official. I've had ejections in soccer however.

Last edited by representing; Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:32pm.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 08:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
Boy's Freshmen during a 3-game Junior High night.

Blue 2 was flopping all night, and hardly any contact is made (he would flop when the shooter would be a foot or two away from him) and we wouldn't call anything, not even a block because no contact would be made until both players would be on the ground.

Well, it would be the 4th or 5th time he flopped, and just like the other times, the shooter would go down after the shot to make sure he doesn't step on the flopper. This time, however, the shooter injures his wrist when falling down. I call the coach over and two other guys came with him, the trainer and one other person who I thought was an AC.

Coach asked "what, NO FOUL?!" and I would respond with "Coach, there was no contact". Then this third guy snickered/laughed at my response in a cocky way so I whacked him with a T (thinking he was an AC). Go to the table, report the T, then administered two free throws. Then it gets weird.

After FT'er misses both T FT, my partner, who was talking to the HC of the team I just whacked, calls me over. HC tells me "I have no ACs, he was the scorekeeper and he is the father of the player that got injured".

This is what I did which I believe to be correct. Since ball was never put back into play, this is a correctable error situation. I wiped out the technical since only Bench personnel, coaches and players can get technical fouls. I told the scorekeeper of both teams (someone took over when the father left the table) to not have any indication of the two FT being taken, even though both were missed. I also wiped out the indirect to the HC. I then said to the AD, who was near the table, that I want that father ejected from the gym because of his snickering at me when he was already violating two other rules, leaving the table and being an ineligible person to go onto the court. Then we continued the game with the POI since ball was in play when I stopped it due to the injury.

Let's the comments begin, please...
Concerning what I've underlined, I have a question concerning rules. Since the father was the scorekeeper, was he the official scorekeeper or the visitors' scorekeeper?

If he was the visitors' scorekeeper, couldn't the T be assesed being that he could be considered bench personnel due to coming on the court without permission & his repsonse to the answer to the coach?

From my understanding, bench personnel include: non-active players, managers, & staticians.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 08:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
1) Blue 2 was flopping all night, and hardly any contact is made (he would flop when the shooter would be a foot or two away from him) and we wouldn't call anything, not even a block because no contact would be made until both players would be on the ground. Well, it would be the 4th or 5th time he flopped, and just like the other times, the shooter would go down after the shot to make sure he doesn't step on the flopper. This time, however, the shooter injures his wrist when falling down.

2) Coach asked "what, NO FOUL?!" and I would respond with "Coach, there was no contact".

3) Then this third guy snickered/laughed at my response in a cocky way so I whacked him with a T (thinking he was an AC).

4) This is what I did which I believe to be correct. Since ball was never put back into play, this is a correctable error situation. I wiped out the technical since only Bench personnel, coaches and players can get technical fouls. I told the scorekeeper of both teams (someone took over when the father left the table) to not have any indication of the two FT being taken, even though both were missed. I also wiped out the indirect to the HC.

5) I then said to the AD, who was near the table, that I want that father ejected from the gym because of his snickering at me when he was already violating two other rules, leaving the table and being an ineligible person to go onto the court.
I hardly know where to begin with this one....

1) You were the author of your own misfortune and you've got nobody to blame for this mess but yourself. Flopping all night and you wouldn't call anything? Whythehell not? It's against the rules, isn't it? After the FIRST flop, warn the kid. If he does it again, "T" him up. He'll cut that crap out in a hurry if you take care of bidness. You did nothing and as a direct result, a ballplayer was injured.; sorry, but there it is.

2) Flopping is a technical foul. The definition of "flopping" says NO or little contact. The coach knows more about the rule than you do.

3) Cool. You gave a technical foul to the father of an injured player. On the bright side, you're doing your part to stamp out "snickering".

4) And which one of the 5 correctable errors listed under rule 2-10-1 do you think that this one was? Sorry, but it was an official's error. And that official was you. Might as well man up and admit it instead of mistakenly trying to use a rule as an excuse. And if you think that a team's supporters can't get charged with a technical foul also, you got a lot of rule book reading to do.

5) Ineligible to go on the court? The father of an injured freshman high school player is ineligible to go on the court? Think about it.

Without getting into even more detail, I'll just say hopefully you'll learn from this.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 09:02pm
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Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
Concerning what I've underlined, I have a question concerning rules. Since the father was the scorekeeper, was he the official scorekeeper or the visitors' scorekeeper?

If he was the visitors' scorekeeper, couldn't the T be assesed being that he could be considered bench personnel due to coming on the court without permission & his repsonse to the answer to the coach?

From my understanding, bench personnel include: non-active players, managers, & staticians.
He was the home's scorekeeper, so he was part of the officiating crew, not part of the team.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 09:17pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
I hardly know where to begin with this one....

1) You were the author of your own misfortune and you've got nobody to blame for this mess but yourself. Flopping all night and you wouldn't call anything? Whythehell not? It's against the rules, isn't it? After the FIRST flop, warn the kid. If he does it again, "T" him up. He'll cut that crap out in a hurry if you take care of bidness. You did nothing and as a direct result, a ballplayer was injured.; sorry, but there it is.

2) Flopping is a technical foul. The definition of "flopping" says NO or little contact. The coach knows more about the rule than you do.

3) Cool. You gave a technical foul to the father of an injured player. On the bright side, you're doing your part to stamp out "snickering".

4) And which one of the 5 correctable errors listed under rule 2-10-1 do you think that this one was? Sorry, but it was an official's error. And that official was you. Might as well man up and admit it instead of mistakenly trying to use a rule as an excuse. And if you think that a team's supporters can't get charged with a technical foul also, you got a lot of rule book reading to do.

5) Ineligible to go on the court? The father of an injured freshman high school player is ineligible to go on the court? Think about it.

Without getting into even more detail, I'll just say hopefully you'll learn from this.
Erroneously awarding an unmerited free throw.

And I did tell the coach I ****ed up (in lighter terms) and apologize because the guy who was the scorekeeper did AC the 7th and 8th grade games, so it was just a familiar face that I associated with being an AC.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 09:19pm
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Originally Posted by representing View Post
He was the home's scorekeeper, so he was part of the officiating crew, not part of the team.
Well with that being the case, he didn't follow through on his duties properly then. Being the official/home book you are supposed to remain neutral at all times. Only times the table crew is supposed to leave the table is at halftime (with the official scorer staying unless someone else is available to watch the official book), & at the end of the game.

Actually concerning my point about neutrality, everyone at the table is supposed to be neutral.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:00pm
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Originally Posted by representing View Post
Erroneously awarding an unmerited free throw.

And I did tell the coach I ****ed up (in lighter terms) and apologize because the guy who was the scorekeeper did AC the 7th and 8th grade games, so it was just a familiar face that I associated with being an AC.
That is meant for when you shoot bonus free throws when the team wasn't really in the bonus. You can't retract a technical and use the C.E. rule as your justification.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:02pm
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C'mon, Call It!

One calm, deserving dose of 10-3-6f would have probably avoided the whole mess.
Sorry, but this one's on you.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:17pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
One calm, deserving dose of 10-3-6f would have probably avoided the whole mess.
Sorry, but this one's on you.


ART. 6 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:
a. Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a
manner as to indicate resentment.
b. Using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures.
c. Baiting or taunting an opponent.
NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the basis of race, religion, gender or national origin.
d. Purposely obstructing an opponent’s vision by waving or placing hand(s) near his/her eyes.
NOTE: Purposely diverting an opponent’s attention by waving is different than
holding or waving the hands near the opponent’s eyes for the express purpose of obstructing the vision so that he/she cannot see.
e. Climbing on or lifting a teammate to secure greater height.
f. Faking being fouled, knowingly attempting a free throw or accepting a foul to which the player was not entitled.
g. Use tobacco or smokeless tobacco.
h. Removing the jersey &/or pants/skirt within the visual confines of the playing area.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
Boy's Freshmen during a 3-game Junior High night.

Blue 2 was flopping all night, and hardly any contact is made (he would flop when the shooter would be a foot or two away from him) and we wouldn't call anything, not even a block because no contact would be made until both players would be on the ground.
I'm going to pretty much end up echoing others, but you have got to put a stop to flopping for two reasons. First of all, it's a safety issue. Players are in danger when bodies are on the floor. Second of all, he's trying to influence your calls by faking being fouled. It's a clear tech if it's that obvious. If his flopping is causing the shooter to hit the floor, you really need to make the call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
Well, it would be the 4th or 5th time he flopped, and just like the other times, the shooter would go down after the shot to make sure he doesn't step on the flopper.
This drives home my point. The shooter is trying to control himself and falls because this knucklehead is trying to fool the officials. It's happening more than once, and you're just letting it go.
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Originally Posted by representing View Post
This time, however, the shooter injures his wrist when falling down.
And here is where you harvest what you sowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
I call the coach over and two other guys came with him, the trainer and one other person who I thought was an AC.

Coach asked "what, NO FOUL?!" and I would respond with "Coach, there was no contact".
"little contact" can still be a foul if it forces a player to the floor. In this case, "no contact" is a foul because it's unsporting actions that led to the fall that led to the wrist injury.

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Originally Posted by representing View Post
After FT'er misses both T FT, my partner, who was talking to the HC of the team I just whacked, calls me over. HC tells me "I have no ACs, he was the scorekeeper and he is the father of the player that got injured".

This is what I did which I believe to be correct. Since ball was never put back into play, this is a correctable error situation.
Ugh, this is not a correctable error. You can't call a foul, shoot the free throws, and then uncall the foul by saying the free throws were unmerited. The free throws were merited because you called a foul. What if someone tried to do that with a shooting foul, would you think they were justified?
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:39pm
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Look, I understand that I should have T'd him up. I had emailed the Rule Interpreter of our chapter and he told me that it really isn't called in this chapter, or many other chapters in Pennsylvania. He also said that besides that fact, I did do it correctly to his knowledge, but that he would look it up this weekend and let me know.

As for CE, the rule book does not say anything about it having to be only in bonus situations. It covers all unmerited situations. While the intent was for bonus/non-bonus situations, I did do it correctly to say that those FT attempts do not count.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:50pm
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Originally Posted by representing View Post
Look, I understand that I should have T'd him up. I had emailed the Rule Interpreter of our chapter and he told me that it really isn't called in this chapter, or many other chapters in Pennsylvania. He also said that besides that fact, I did do it correctly to his knowledge, but that he would look it up this weekend and let me know.

As for CE, the rule book does not say anything about it having to be only in bonus situations. It covers all unmerited situations. While the intent was for bonus/non-bonus situations, I did do it correctly to say that those FT attempts do not count.
I'm sorry, but you didn't do it correctly. Let me present a play to demonstrate.

A1 goes up for a shot in the lane, and B1 goes up to defend. B1 blocks it cleanly, knocking it out of bounds. C calls a phantom foul. B coach goes ballistic, so the official Ts the coach.

After shooting the shooting all the shots, the C then approaches the L and asks him what he saw. "It was clean, no contact at all."

The C then decides to correct his error (time frame still applies) and retract the original shooting foul. He wipes away the points because they were unmerited.

Do you think he has rules backing for this?

And I'm sorry, but your rules interpreter shouldn't have to look this up to know you kicked it.
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 12:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post

Blue 2 was flopping all night, and hardly any contact is made (he would flop when the shooter would be a foot or two away from him) and we wouldn't call anything, not even a block because no contact would be made until both players would be on the ground.

Well, it would be the 4th or 5th time he flopped, and just like the other times, the shooter would go down after the shot to make sure he doesn't step on the flopper.
I cannot picture this. Defender flops. No contact. "....a foot or two away..."
And wouldn't that mean he is even farther away after the flop? Yet the shooter falls down to keep from stepping on him??

I don't get it.
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Last edited by just another ref; Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 01:35am.
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 12:27am
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I hate to be the one to bring this up, but representing has been officiating for six years and doesn't know how the CE rule applies?
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 12:55am
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Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
I hate to be the one to bring this up, but representing has been officiating for six years and doesn't know how the CE rule applies?
I'm more concerned that his rules interpreter doesn't seem to either.
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