An unusual situation

[ChuckElias]

Here's the situation. I've never seen it happen, it's just an interesting "what if. . .". TH, crew and I have been discussing it and I thought it would make for some interesting discussion.

4.2 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter. Team A leads by 3 points. B1 is in the act of shooting a 3-point try when a player from team A's bench runs on the floor contacts B1. The try is unsuccessful. What do we call, and how do we administer?

The NBA has a specific ruling that you would award 3 points and assess a T.

In HS and NCAA, it seems that the rules unfairly penalize the offended team. The most likely ruling is a flagrant T on the player from A's bench. But that only gives 2 shots, not enough to tie the game. And in NCAA, if the shot had already been released, then team B might not even get the ball back (they would go to the arrow).

What do you think is appropriate here? I have my own idea, but I'll hold off on giving it for a while.

Chuck

[RecRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


What do you think is appropriate here? I have my own idea, but I'll hold off on giving it for a while.

Chuck

The easy answer is 3 free throws for the interference during the shot and 2 shots for the flagrant T.

The hard answer, because I think it is the right thing to do, is that team A forfeits the game 1 – 0. There is no excuse for this type of action.

[Camron Rust]

I can think of a few possibilities.

First, you can not award the points. There is no support for that anywhere.

As RecRef suggested, a forfeit is a very real possibility and would be completely justified.

Chew on this idea....

1. A6 is charged with a flagrant T for illegally entering the floor.
2. Since continuous motion applies, B1 was in the act, the ball remains live. A6 is charged with an intentional foul for contacting B1.

You could stop here with team B getting 2 shots for the T and B1 getting 3 shots for the personal foul plus the ball back.

However, in such a drastic case, I think you could carry it a little further...

3. Since A had 6 players participating, team A is also charged with a team T. 2 more shots.

You could keep finding infractions to pile on since the ball remains live until the try ends.

4. Perhaps, A6 says something along the way where you could call an unsportsmanlike T against him. 2 more shot.


In then end, you either call a forfeit for such a travesty, or you make B earn it (perhaps again) at the line while finding a way to give them plenty of FT attempts.

My preference...forfeit.

Earlier in the game, since it doesn't have such a direct impact on the outcome, it should probably only be a T plus a shooting foul.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Aug 1st, 2002 at 03:36 PM]

[Brian Watson]

I am not sure if this is specifically covered by the rules, but there is no provision to award a bucket for any reason other than goaltending or BI.

I think in this case the offensive team takes in the jockey's. It is only a T (and I will not get into a lengthy discussion on the type of T, I think we would all boot the kid) against the player who ran on the floor.

It would appear to be a loop hole in the rules, but I am not going to make something up to accomodate it (like give him one T for entering the floor without being beckoned, one for assulting the shooter, and one for having 6 players on the floor). Just bad luck for the O.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RecRef
The easy answer is 3 free throws for the interference during the shot and 2 shots for the flagrant T.

"Interference"? How would back that up? Not being critical, honest. I just want to know what your justification would be.

The hard answer, because I think it is the right thing to do, is that team A forfeits the game 1 – 0.

Wouldn't it be 2-0?

[APHP]

Maybe I am over simplifying things but Rule 2 Sect. 3-The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules. Secondly (with 4 seconds left in the game) Rule 2 Sect. 5 Art. 4--may declare the game a forfiet when conditons warrant. I would have no problem calling my assigner or state director and tell him with 4 seconds left I forfieted the game because of the actions as stated above.

[Jurassic Referee]

I'd let my partners handle this one!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I'd let my partners handle this one!

LOL! I was thinking the same thing!

"I'll be waiting down by the other endline until you guys settle this. Take your time...no rush..."

[Danvrapp]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Wouldn't it be 2-0? [/B]

Rule 5.4.1 states that a forfeit is recored as 2-0 in favor of the "winning" team.

[LarryS]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

LOL! I was thinking the same thing!

"I'll be waiting down by the other endline until you guys settle this. Take your time...no rush..."

Man am I glad to see I was not alone

Got a feeling, whatever you decided to do, you better be able to explain it confidently to both coaches. However pulls off selling a ruling on a situation like this, my company has an opening for a Nat'l Account Manager...I'm serious.

[112448]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
And in NCAA, if the shot had already been released, then team B might not even get the ball back (they would go to the arrow).

What do you think is appropriate here? I have my own idea, but I'll hold off on giving it for a while.

Chuck

i'm not sure i like your interpretation of the NCAA rules for this situation. in the case of a flagrant T, which I would call for this play, the team retains possession and gets the ball at the division line. see 2002 NCAA Rule 10-12-1.

other than that i agree that i would give 3 ft's for contacting the shooter and 2 ft's for a flagrant T and then team A would get the ball back at the division line.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

"Interference"? How would back that up? Not being critical, honest. I just want to know what your justification would be.

It’s a poor choice of words on my part. Interference, as in, a foul in the act of shooting.

The hard answer, because I think it is the right thing to do, is that team A forfeits the game 1 – 0.

Wouldn't it be 2-0? [/B][/QUOTE]

2, yes you are correct. The 1 came from a rec league's rules I put together a few years back. 1 - 0 for no-shows.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by 112448
i'm not sure i like your interpretation of the NCAA rules for this situation. in the case of a flagrant T, which I would call for this play, the team retains possession and gets the ball at the division line.

Good catch!! I forgot that the flagrant also gives possession. (Strangely, I remembered that an intentional T gives possession. . . ) I was trying to make the situation as dire as possible and just got over-eager. Thanks for pointing it out.

Chuck

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Chew on this idea....

1. A6 is charged with a flagrant T for illegally entering the floor.
2. Since continuous motion applies, B1 was in the act, the ball remains live. A6 is charged with an intentional foul for contacting B1.

I like - kind of a 5-to-make-3 situation going on. All fouls would be technicals (although I'm not sure of a flagrant T for illegal entry, the contact would have to be an intentional (at least) T, giving 3 shots) so the shots can be from any player.

You could stop here with team B getting 2 shots for the T and B1 getting 3 shots for the personal foul plus the ball back.

However, in such a drastic case, I think you could carry it a little further...

3. Since A had 6 players participating, team A is also charged with a team T. 2 more shots.

I dunno on this one. It seems a bit too much like MTD Sr.'s double jeopardy penalties.

In then end, you either call a forfeit for such a travesty, or you make B earn it (perhaps again) at the line while finding a way to give them plenty of FT attempts.

My preference...forfeit.

Mine, too. Just as a quick note to all concerned, a forfeit is recorded as 2-0 only if the team to which the game is forfeited is behind at the time of the forfeit.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I dunno on this one. It seems a bit too much like MTD Sr.'s double jeopardy penalties.

This was actually the idea I originally had. I thought that you could give a T for illegal entry, and a T for 6 players on the floor. I call this the DeNucci Doctrine -- penalizing two infractions on the same action. I don't really like it either, but I couldn't come up with anything better. And to be honest, I don't really like the idea of forfeiting the game b/c of one stupid kid's action, especially since it wasn't violent. Speaking of forfeits. . .

Just as a quick note to all concerned, a forfeit is recorded as 2-0 only if the team to which the game is forfeited is behind at the time of the forfeit.

Correct, and that's the case in the situation. That's why I merely corrected the score in my previous post. But it's good to have a reminder. If the team to which the game is forfeited is ahead at the time of the forfeit then the score in the book at the time of the forfeit officially becomes the final score.

This is probably a totally different thread, but can anybody recall an NCAA or NBA game that was decided by forfeit? I can't.

Chuck