Six players on the court

[Wellmer]

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully if everything had gone correctly, he should not be on the floor yet

Fixed it for you. If you're in some sort of teaching environment, ok. I've found the kids learn just as quickly when I enforce the rules as written; tell the thrower to play on. In the video, I'd have gone with the T (assuming I didn't slow down seeing the sub come in).
The biggest lesson needed is for the player to know he has to wait until the refs tell him he can come in. One T and he'll never forget. A talk from the official? He'll forget by the next morning.

[Wellmer]

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

Every time the horn blows in this case, I tell the thrower to continue. Typically, the players know to wait for us around here, so I wouldn't have caught any grief for the T.

[Wellmer]

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal. I have seen this on college games on TV and even the ESPN high school games. I am not disagreeing with how this whole situation was handled, just giving my input. This kid heard the horn and came on the court. Did he learn a lesson? Yes, I think he did. Next time, he will wait to be beckoned on the court, I am sure.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal. I have seen this on college games on TV and even the ESPN high school games. I am not disagreeing with how this whole situation was handled, just giving my input. This kid heard the horn and came on the court. Did he learn a lesson? Yes, I think he did. Next time, he will wait to be beckoned on the court, I am sure.

At the high school levels here, the players all look at the officials before going onto the court. If I'm standing right in front of them, I'll simply tell them verbally to come in.

[Wellmer]

Snaqwells, they do the same thing here. That was my thought. Without the horn, no problem would have occurred but it did and then as officials you have to handle it from there.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

Snaqwells, they do the same thing here. That was my thought. Without the horn, no problem would have occurred but it did and then as officials you have to handle it from there.

Agreed, but you're initially faced with two options.
1. Blow the whistle and let the sub in.
2. Tell the thrower to continue. With that option, I'd like to see the T put his hand up and tell the sub to wait.

If you go with #2 (and I would normally), and the sub comes running in anyway, you have a 2nd chance to blow it dead. If you do this, talk to him, but you really should let him enter at this point. If not (and I wouldn't, but some would), call the T.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal.

Under NFHS rules this "second stoppage" is a new opportunity to substitute. All eligible subs can enter at this point and, by rule, the official must allow the eligible subs to enter.

Originally Posted by Wellmer

I have seen this on college games on TV

That would be because the NCAA rule is different. Subs are not allowed to come in the game because of accidental whistles.

Originally Posted by Wellmer

and even the ESPN high school games.

If you actually did see this, it was incorrect if the high schools were playing under NFHS rules.

Bottom line is, don't over-think this situation. There are very few exceptions when substitutions aren't allowed during a dead ball while the clock is stopped. Those are during multiple free throws (subs wait until the period before final free throw) and when subs report after the warning horn during a TO or intermission. I can't think of any other time when an eligible sub may not enter the game.

The game is easier to administer if you don't create new administrative restrictions. Keep it simple.

[Wellmer]

So in this case, would you say the inadvertant horn could create a fiasco? Some players stop when they hear the horn, some don't. The sub coming in is part way on the floor before the T sees him and sends him back off? I understand completely about once the horn sounds, you should let him in then. I am just saying, let's try to avoid the confusion and get the game going again. Put the sub in, put the ball in and play on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So in this case, would you say the inadvertant horn could create a fiasco? Some players stop when they hear the horn, some don't. The sub coming in is part way on the floor before the T sees him and sends him back off? I understand completely about once the horn sounds, you should let him in then. I am just saying, let's try to avoid the confusion and get the game going again. Put the sub in, put the ball in and play on.

No, the sub can come in once the whistle blows. The horn is officially irrelevant in this case, so you ignore it. That's why I tell the thrower to play on, all the players will get it quickly enough.

If you decide to blow the whistle and kill it, let him in.

Yes, this whole mess was created by a over eager timer, or a coach who yelled "Sub" as he sent young Mr. Snuffy to the table combined with a timer who is used to listening to the coach.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So in this case, would you say the inadvertant horn could create a fiasco?

Add one more letter to this sentence and it will tell you everything you need to know about why I exist.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

What are you teaching? That's it's OK for officials to ignore a plainly written rule because they don't like or agree with that rule? That it's OK to go ahead and make up their own rules if their "common sense" tells them that they're right and the rules are wrong?

Lah me......

[gslefeb]

I would have thought the center would have seen the player standing up, coming to the table prior.

The trail was walking from the center of the court never glanced over to the table. If he did, he would have seen the sub.

Was the ball put back in play too quickly?

[referee99]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

I would have thought the center would have seen the player standing up, coming to the table prior.

The trail was walking from the center of the court never glanced over to the table. If he did, he would have seen the sub.

Was the ball put back in play too quickly?

...I see the majority of the white players not ready to play when the ball became live.
-- Trail official is just getting into position.

I don't know what preceded, but the handing of the ball to the thrower seems to have happened quickly.