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Clark Kent Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:51pm

Six players on the court
 
Three minutes or so into the fourth quarter we have a common foul and the ball is awarded at the baseline for an inbound play. I'm Lead administering the ball, just after I hand the ball to Black a White Sub comes to the table. Trail didn't see him (nor did C or L) but the horn sounds and the player comes on the court to sub. Six players on the court is a Tech, but what I want to know is what I (as lead) could have done better and us as a crew could have done better, as well as any additional insight you have.

Thanks.

YouTube - Tech1 2010_01_15_11_33_43.avi

Adam Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:54pm

Your T here is for the sub coming in without being beckoned rather than for 6 players. The difference is a sub T is charged directly to the player, while a 6 player T is simply a team T.

This one's tough to prevent, too.

just another ref Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 652078)
Three minutes or so into the fourth quarter we have a common foul and the ball is awarded at the baseline for an inbound play. I'm Lead administering the ball, just after I hand the ball to Black a White Sub comes to the table. Trail didn't see him (nor did C or L) but the horn sounds and the player comes on the court to sub. Six players on the court is a Tech, but what I want to know is what I (as lead) could have done better and us as a crew could have done better, as well as any additional insight you have.

Thanks.

YouTube - Tech1 2010_01_15_11_33_43.avi

If the sub came to the table just as you handed the ball to the player, and the horn sounded afterward, you did nothing wrong. The horn should not have sounded, and even if it did, the sub should not have entered without being beckoned.

icallfouls Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:02pm

The player running out is not something you have control over.

I would suggest that you could have blown your whistle to acknowledge the horn and stop the inbound, as oftentimes players will stop when they hear the horn.

icallfouls Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 652078)
Three minutes or so into the fourth quarter we have a common foul and the ball is awarded at the baseline for an inbound play. I'm Lead administering the ball, just after I hand the ball to Black a White Sub comes to the table. Trail didn't see him (nor did C or L) but the horn sounds and the player comes on the court to sub. Six players on the court is a Tech, but what I want to know is what I (as lead) could have done better and us as a crew could have done better, as well as any additional insight you have.

Thanks.

YouTube - Tech1 2010_01_15_11_33_43.avi

Did you let the T handle your call/no call? and do all the heavy lifting? You had all the information.

Adam Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 652086)
I would suggest that you could have blown your whistle to acknowledge the horn and stop the inbound, as oftentimes players will stop when they hear the horn.

I personally don't do this, because now you have to let the sub in and I'd prefer not to. From this situation, this T needed to be called for this player to learn.

Rich Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 652091)
I personally don't do this, because now you have to let the sub in and I'd prefer not to. From this situation, this T needed to be called for this player to learn.

And I would argue that the L should've seen that sub coming up to the table and withheld the throw-in. He was essentially at the X when the ball was handed to the thrower-in. The last thing I do before handing the ball is look at the table and it doesn't appear the L did.

In this situation, I'd hit the whistle, take the ball back, and allow the sub. No T. I would talk to the kid about not coming in on the horn and wait to be beckoned, but we shouldn't have had the horn in the first place.

icallfouls Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 652091)
I personally don't do this, because now you have to let the sub in and I'd prefer not to. From this situation, this T needed to be called for this player to learn.

The OP asked for a possible way to prevent this which is what I offered.

Clark Kent Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 652079)
Your T here is for the sub coming in without being beckoned rather than for 6 players. The difference is a sub T is charged directly to the player, while a 6 player T is simply a team T.

Right. My bad.

Adam Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 652094)
The OP asked for a possible way to prevent this which is what I offered.

Fair enough. Now, Rich makes a good point, the events (hand off and player getting to the X) are pretty close together. I'm not against his advice on this, and have done just that on occasion. If, however, the coach has made a habit of sending subs to the table at just this moment, I won't do it.

Wellmer Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:23pm

I am with RichMSN, the very last thing I do before handing the ball to the inbounder is to glance at the table. If he's close, I will just hold up and point towards the table therefore notifying the table side official that a sub is coming in. In this case, I would have killed it, since the buzzer sounded, kept the player out and started back up with the throw in. No harm done.

Clark Kent Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 652090)
Did you let the T handle your call/no call? and do all the heavy lifting? You had all the information.

Yes. And maybe that is something I could do differently. My thought/justification was that He knew that he didn't beckon the sub in and there was more controversy over that than having them sub during play. I didn't think about it much I guess. He explained to the coach the situation and I just administered the FTs.

fiasco Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 652093)
And I would argue that the L should've seen that sub coming up to the table and withheld the throw-in. He was essentially at the X when the ball was handed to the thrower-in. The last thing I do before handing the ball is look at the table and it doesn't appear the L did.

I disagree.

The player doesn't even appear on screen until the whistle is blown to inbound the ball. He doesn't reach the middle of the bench to report as a sub until the ball is in the player's hands.

I often have coaches who send their kid to the bench right as the ball is inbounding because they want them to be ready at the next opportunity for a substitution.

Once the whistle is blown to put the ball in play, my eyes aren't at the table. My eyes are on the players, anticipating anything that may happen.

So, Clark, I think you guys did a great job (except for the type of T that was called). This was a horn operator error, as well as the kid's fault for coming in un-beckoned, and you guys did the best you could with it.

Rich Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 652108)
I disagree.

The player doesn't even appear on screen until the whistle is blown to inbound the ball. He doesn't reach the middle of the bench to report as a sub until the ball is in the player's hands.

I often have coaches who send their kid to the bench right as the ball is inbounding because they want them to be ready at the next opportunity for a substitution.

Once the whistle is blown to put the ball in play, my eyes aren't at the table. My eyes are on the players, anticipating anything that may happen.

So, Clark, I think you guys did a great job (except for the type of T that was called). This was a horn operator error, as well as the kid's fault for coming in un-beckoned, and you guys did the best you could with it.

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

Adam Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 652109)
The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

Unless it took exceptionally long to report the foul that preceded the video, I agree.


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