Six players on the court

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I disagree.

The player doesn't even appear on screen until the whistle is blown to inbound the ball. He doesn't reach the middle of the bench to report as a sub until the ball is in the player's hands.

I often have coaches who send their kid to the bench right as the ball is inbounding because they want them to be ready at the next opportunity for a substitution.

Once the whistle is blown to put the ball in play, my eyes aren't at the table. My eyes are on the players, anticipating anything that may happen.

So, Clark, I think you guys did a great job (except for the type of T that was called). This was a horn operator error, as well as the kid's fault for coming in un-beckoned, and you guys did the best you could with it.

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

Unless it took exceptionally long to report the foul that preceded the video, I agree.

[doubleringer]

I would have stopped play and made the sub go back and wait for the next dead ball. I also would have taken a second to talk to the table about not hitting the horn if we're already in putting the ball in play.

Playing devil's advocate....how much of a pregame did you do with the table crew?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I would have stopped play and made the sub go back and wait for the next dead ball. I also would have taken a second to talk to the table about not hitting the horn if we're already in putting the ball in play.

Playing devil's advocate....how much of a pregame did you do with the table crew?

Again, there is no rules justification for holding an eligible substitute out. If you stop play to prevent the T, you have just created a new opportunity to substitute, and you must allow the eligible sub to enter the game.

[Rich]

It's obvious (to me, anyway) when a coach is holding back a sub for the next opportunity. If the kid is walking up to the table and isn't delaying things for more than a second or two, I'm holding up and letting him in.

Clearly, others' mileage varies.

In this instance with the horn blowing, I'm not pulling out a sledgehammer to handle what could be done with a quick whistle and a quick word. Again, others' mileage varies.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

..... I'm not pulling out a sledgehammer to handle what could be done with a quick whistle and a quick word.

Very nice. I like this. Not a bad idea to have that sledgehammer around, though.

[Rich]

Last night we were working just a brutal game (see thread F-I-F-T-Y fouls) and after halftime we were just about to start the second half. I'm the U, 2-person.

I counted 10 players and just as I dropped my hand and just before the R was going to bounce to the thrower in a sixth player from the visiting team ran onto the floor. She was talking with the coach at or near the sideline after the huddle and must've thought she was in.

I hit my whistle before the ball ever became live (and gave a few strong tweets) and got her off the floor. The home coach wanted to know why it wasn't a technical and I told her we never made the ball live and we fixed it before the half started. Good enough for her. The home fans, though, kept up about it for a minute or so (you know, while we were calling the first 4 fouls of the half).

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

I don't know why it's being blown but that's not the point. I'm using the whistle as a frame of reference.

The point is that all three officials were ready and focused the fact that the ball was actively being put in play. The player only got to the bench when the ball was already in the player's hands, meaning the ball is live. At that point, as an official, I don't focus on the bench. If the ball is in the hands of the thrower, my attention is on the action on the floor.

I don't think its fair to say, based on the video, that the officials were slacking here. The player came late to the bench, and the horn operator was at fault for sounding the horn.

[Wellmer]

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully if everything had gone correctly, he should not be on the floor yet

Fixed it for you. If you're in some sort of teaching environment, ok. I've found the kids learn just as quickly when I enforce the rules as written; tell the thrower to play on. In the video, I'd have gone with the T (assuming I didn't slow down seeing the sub come in).
The biggest lesson needed is for the player to know he has to wait until the refs tell him he can come in. One T and he'll never forget. A talk from the official? He'll forget by the next morning.

[Wellmer]

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

Every time the horn blows in this case, I tell the thrower to continue. Typically, the players know to wait for us around here, so I wouldn't have caught any grief for the T.

[Wellmer]

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal. I have seen this on college games on TV and even the ESPN high school games. I am not disagreeing with how this whole situation was handled, just giving my input. This kid heard the horn and came on the court. Did he learn a lesson? Yes, I think he did. Next time, he will wait to be beckoned on the court, I am sure.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal. I have seen this on college games on TV and even the ESPN high school games. I am not disagreeing with how this whole situation was handled, just giving my input. This kid heard the horn and came on the court. Did he learn a lesson? Yes, I think he did. Next time, he will wait to be beckoned on the court, I am sure.

At the high school levels here, the players all look at the officials before going onto the court. If I'm standing right in front of them, I'll simply tell them verbally to come in.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal.

Under NFHS rules this "second stoppage" is a new opportunity to substitute. All eligible subs can enter at this point and, by rule, the official must allow the eligible subs to enter.

Originally Posted by Wellmer

I have seen this on college games on TV

That would be because the NCAA rule is different. Subs are not allowed to come in the game because of accidental whistles.

Originally Posted by Wellmer

and even the ESPN high school games.

If you actually did see this, it was incorrect if the high schools were playing under NFHS rules.

Bottom line is, don't over-think this situation. There are very few exceptions when substitutions aren't allowed during a dead ball while the clock is stopped. Those are during multiple free throws (subs wait until the period before final free throw) and when subs report after the warning horn during a TO or intermission. I can't think of any other time when an eligible sub may not enter the game.

The game is easier to administer if you don't create new administrative restrictions. Keep it simple.