6 players on the court - what would you do?

[theboys]

Freshman boys game this weekend - A1 shoots, is fouled, shot goes in. As teams line up for the FT, A's coach puts in some subs. Problem is, more go on the court than come off. To make matters worse, none of the refs (3 man crew), neither of the coaches, and apparently, none of the players notice. Who's that leave? The all-knowing fans!

Ref bounces the ball to A1 at the line. Stands erupt with calls of six players on the court. Team A's coach quickly calls a time-out. Howls continue. Refs confer.

You make the call!

[JRutledge]

Well you cannot call a T if the officials did not notice 6 players on the court.


Peace

[firedoc]

I would blow the whistle immediately and direct the coach to remove a player before any further activity occurs. I agree that you cannot call a "T" since it was an inadvertant error by the coach. Also, once the ball becomes live, all players become legal participants.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by firedoc
once the ball becomes live, all players become legal participants.

Meaning that you can't issue a technical foul for having six players during a live ball?

Chuck

[Refneck]

I would blow the whistle, take the ball from the shooter, and ask the coach to remove a player. If the other coach barks, I would tell him it's my fault because I gave the ball to the shooter before ensuring the correct number of players are on the floor. If he keeps going I would tell him that I can't call a technical on myself, but I can call one on him.

[Tim Roden]

Who invited the subs in? T and C should be paying attention. Count the number of players coming in then count players as the go off. If you are unsure of how many are on the floor, keep the hand up. Eye contact. I remember somewhere, I think it was a pregame in Levenson's site that said. "It is more import to know who leaves the game than who comes in."

In this senerio where all are fast asleep except that one guy on the sixth row of the bleachers. No T but blow whistle before the shot and get a player off the court. If the shot is taken before the situation is caught, there is no choice but to call a T.

[Pirate]

IMO, just because it might be the coach's or official's mistake/oversight, does not mean that this situation should be overlooked. The rule book does not give us the leeway (sp?) to determine which rules we enforce and which ones we do not. I know, I know, sometimes we have to use our "judgement" in making certain calls (see Rut's response). But, as an ex-coach, let me suggest that we (as officials) are better off if we make the calls we see or are aware of and forget the temptation to avoid certain calls due to an official's error. Are we there to save our butts or make the correct call???

Let me give you an example that happened in a district tournament game in which I was coaching many years ago. Game is tied with 30 seconds remaining, team A's basketball. Team A takes a timeout to substitute. Both teams use the timeout to discuss strategy. After the timeout, Team A inbounds and makes several passes. At that time, the Team B coach (me) notices that Team A did not remove a player and there are 6 Team A players on the floor. The officials, now aware that there are 6 Team A players on the floor, have no choice other than to "T" Team A (and remove the egg from their face for allowing such an incident to happen in the first place). We (Team B) make the free throws, get possession and hold on to win. Team B's coach didn't blame the officials for their call. In fact, if anything, he admitted to a lack of communication which led to the T. The lack of a call in this situation would simply have compounded the ugliness of the situation, in my opinion.

[Ref in PA]

This situation (or close to it) happened to me this weekend. Was doing two man in a 6th grade boys tournament and I was the trail about to administer a throwin in back court. Team A ran players to the table and so we subbed them in. Confusion sets in with boys going toward the bench, then back toward the court a couple of times. I make a quick count and have six As on the court. I whistle and tell the coach to get one off. More confusion. I see a kid go off and turn back to get ready for the throw in. I check my partner - he points back, we are ready to go - I administer the throw-in. We are halfway up the court and my partner blows the whistle - 6 As on the court. How I don't know. Partner called a team T on A. I still don't know how that happened. I was embarrassed - and I should have counted one last time, but the delay was already very long and I was ready for the game to continue. There is a lot to be said for taking your time

[APHP]

By rule, if the officials noticed that there were 6 players on the court "before" the timeout was granted, a tec must be called. If the officials did not notice that 6 players were on the court until "after" the timeout has granted-then a tec is not called.

[theboys]

Based on the replies so far, it appears our poor officials may have kicked the call.

This is what ensued: The officials called a 'T' (because the shooter already had the ball?). B1 shot the technical (2 FT's), making both. Team A's lane was then cleared, and A1 shot his free-throw (from the foul), which he missed. The officials then directed both teams to half-court where they prepared to admininster a throw-in for team B.

But, wait there's more! Team A's varsity coach was keeping the home book. After A1 missed the FT, he told the refs they had administered the FTs in the wrong order, that it was a correctable error, that the technicals scored by B should be removed from the book, and both teams be required to shoot again, in reverse order. One of the officials held his arm out to the varsity coach (palm facing), said, "That's enough, coach", and proceeded with the throw-in.

I wasn't sure what the procedure was supposed to be, but felt bad for the refs (that's a rarity!). I heard later that an assignor had been evaluating them. Argghhh.

[ChuckElias]

Ok, after typing out my answer, I went back and realized that it was a HS game. But I'm too lazy to take out all the college stuff. Proceed at your own risk.

Originally posted by theboys
The officials called a 'T' (because the shooter already had the ball?). B1 shot the technical (2 FT's), making both. Team A's lane was then cleared, and A1 shot his free-throw (from the foul), which he missed. The officials then directed both teams to half-court where they prepared to admininster a throw-in for team B.

Wow. Ok, is this a HS game or a college game? Either way, the officials screwed up. But they screwed up worse if it was a college game.

HS: shoot them in the order they occur. 1 FT for the personal (lane cleared), then 2 for the T (lane cleared), ball to B due to the T. If this was a HS game, then it's kind of "all's well that ends well" b/c they shot all the FTs they were supposed to and they gave the ball to the correct team after the FTs. They shot them out of order, but at least they continued correctly after the FTs.

College: shoot the T first and then go to the POI (and then tear up the rest of your schedule!). They administered the FTs in the correct order, but should have allowed the lane to be filled during A's FT and played off the miss.

But, wait there's more! After A1 missed the FT, he told the refs they had administered the FTs in the wrong order, that it was a correctable error, that the technicals scored by B should be removed from the book, and both teams be required to shoot again, in reverse order.

This is a very tough point. In fact, this was a question on the ECAC refresher test this year, and I still don't know the correct answer. What do you do if you administer the FTs in the wrong order? I honestly don't think it's correctable; it doesn't fit under any of the items in 2-10. I think if this was a HS game, that the officials did the correct thing by continuing from where they were. If it were a college game, I think you have to let all the FTs stand and go to the arrow. Ouch.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by theboys
Based on the replies so far, it appears our poor officials may have kicked the call.

This is what ensued: The officials called a 'T' (because the shooter already had the ball?). B1 shot the technical (2 FT's), making both. Team A's lane was then cleared, and A1 shot his free-throw (from the foul), which he missed. The officials then directed both teams to half-court where they prepared to admininster a throw-in for team B.

But, wait there's more! Team A's varsity coach was keeping the home book. After A1 missed the FT, he told the refs they had administered the FTs in the wrong order, that it was a correctable error, that the technicals scored by B should be removed from the book, and both teams be required to shoot again, in reverse order. One of the officials held his arm out to the varsity coach (palm facing), said, "That's enough, coach", and proceeded with the throw-in.

I wasn't sure what the procedure was supposed to be, but felt bad for the refs (that's a rarity!). I heard later that an assignor had been evaluating them. Argghhh.

The officials had to call the T because they discovered it during a live ball.They have no other option under R10-1-6 and Penalty(Art6).The coach keeping score was full of crap when he wanted a correctable error called.The FT's were shot in the wrong order,but all the shots were merited.There's nothing there to correct,by rule.

You're right,though--bad time to go through all this with an evaluator there.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

This one's different than the one above.If the officials grant the TO before they discover that A had 6 on the floor,then they can't call a T because A is no longer violating(dead ball).You can only penalize A in this case if you discover that they have 6 on while they are violating. R10-1-Penalty(Art6).

[cmckenna]

This is why it is part of my game management process to count the players after every sub before the ball is put in to play. As always a little preventative officiating can go a long way.....

[APHP]

Shooting free throws out of order is not a correctable error. There is a HFHS case play somewhere on this, but I'm I"m not going to take the time to find it.....but I am sure it is not a correctable error to shoot free throws "out of order".