Six players on the court

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I personally don't do this, because now you have to let the sub in and I'd prefer not to. From this situation, this T needed to be called for this player to learn.

And I would argue that the L should've seen that sub coming up to the table and withheld the throw-in. He was essentially at the X when the ball was handed to the thrower-in. The last thing I do before handing the ball is look at the table and it doesn't appear the L did.

In this situation, I'd hit the whistle, take the ball back, and allow the sub. No T. I would talk to the kid about not coming in on the horn and wait to be beckoned, but we shouldn't have had the horn in the first place.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And I would argue that the L should've seen that sub coming up to the table and withheld the throw-in. He was essentially at the X when the ball was handed to the thrower-in. The last thing I do before handing the ball is look at the table and it doesn't appear the L did.

I disagree.

The player doesn't even appear on screen until the whistle is blown to inbound the ball. He doesn't reach the middle of the bench to report as a sub until the ball is in the player's hands.

I often have coaches who send their kid to the bench right as the ball is inbounding because they want them to be ready at the next opportunity for a substitution.

Once the whistle is blown to put the ball in play, my eyes aren't at the table. My eyes are on the players, anticipating anything that may happen.

So, Clark, I think you guys did a great job (except for the type of T that was called). This was a horn operator error, as well as the kid's fault for coming in un-beckoned, and you guys did the best you could with it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I disagree.

The player doesn't even appear on screen until the whistle is blown to inbound the ball. He doesn't reach the middle of the bench to report as a sub until the ball is in the player's hands.

I often have coaches who send their kid to the bench right as the ball is inbounding because they want them to be ready at the next opportunity for a substitution.

Once the whistle is blown to put the ball in play, my eyes aren't at the table. My eyes are on the players, anticipating anything that may happen.

So, Clark, I think you guys did a great job (except for the type of T that was called). This was a horn operator error, as well as the kid's fault for coming in un-beckoned, and you guys did the best you could with it.

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

Unless it took exceptionally long to report the foul that preceded the video, I agree.

[doubleringer]

I would have stopped play and made the sub go back and wait for the next dead ball. I also would have taken a second to talk to the table about not hitting the horn if we're already in putting the ball in play.

Playing devil's advocate....how much of a pregame did you do with the table crew?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I would have stopped play and made the sub go back and wait for the next dead ball. I also would have taken a second to talk to the table about not hitting the horn if we're already in putting the ball in play.

Playing devil's advocate....how much of a pregame did you do with the table crew?

Again, there is no rules justification for holding an eligible substitute out. If you stop play to prevent the T, you have just created a new opportunity to substitute, and you must allow the eligible sub to enter the game.

[Rich]

It's obvious (to me, anyway) when a coach is holding back a sub for the next opportunity. If the kid is walking up to the table and isn't delaying things for more than a second or two, I'm holding up and letting him in.

Clearly, others' mileage varies.

In this instance with the horn blowing, I'm not pulling out a sledgehammer to handle what could be done with a quick whistle and a quick word. Again, others' mileage varies.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

..... I'm not pulling out a sledgehammer to handle what could be done with a quick whistle and a quick word.

Very nice. I like this. Not a bad idea to have that sledgehammer around, though.

[Rich]

Last night we were working just a brutal game (see thread F-I-F-T-Y fouls) and after halftime we were just about to start the second half. I'm the U, 2-person.

I counted 10 players and just as I dropped my hand and just before the R was going to bounce to the thrower in a sixth player from the visiting team ran onto the floor. She was talking with the coach at or near the sideline after the huddle and must've thought she was in.

I hit my whistle before the ball ever became live (and gave a few strong tweets) and got her off the floor. The home coach wanted to know why it wasn't a technical and I told her we never made the ball live and we fixed it before the half started. Good enough for her. The home fans, though, kept up about it for a minute or so (you know, while we were calling the first 4 fouls of the half).

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

I don't know why it's being blown but that's not the point. I'm using the whistle as a frame of reference.

The point is that all three officials were ready and focused the fact that the ball was actively being put in play. The player only got to the bench when the ball was already in the player's hands, meaning the ball is live. At that point, as an official, I don't focus on the bench. If the ball is in the hands of the thrower, my attention is on the action on the floor.

I don't think its fair to say, based on the video, that the officials were slacking here. The player came late to the bench, and the horn operator was at fault for sounding the horn.

[Wellmer]

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully if everything had gone correctly, he should not be on the floor yet

Fixed it for you. If you're in some sort of teaching environment, ok. I've found the kids learn just as quickly when I enforce the rules as written; tell the thrower to play on. In the video, I'd have gone with the T (assuming I didn't slow down seeing the sub come in).
The biggest lesson needed is for the player to know he has to wait until the refs tell him he can come in. One T and he'll never forget. A talk from the official? He'll forget by the next morning.

[Wellmer]

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

What are you teaching? That's it's OK for officials to ignore a plainly written rule because they don't like or agree with that rule? That it's OK to go ahead and make up their own rules if their "common sense" tells them that they're right and the rules are wrong?

Lah me......

[gslefeb]

I would have thought the center would have seen the player standing up, coming to the table prior.

The trail was walking from the center of the court never glanced over to the table. If he did, he would have seen the sub.

Was the ball put back in play too quickly?