End of game situation

[ref83]

There is 1 second remaining in the 4th quarter. Team A is up by 1 point. Team A is inbounding the ball in their front court. They throw the throw in pass deep into their back court. As the ball is in the air on the throw in, the horn sounds and the players assume the game is over and do not go after the ball which rolls out of bounds untouched. (Clock operator started the clock before the ball was touched inbounds.) Is the clock reset to 1 second? Is this ruled a throw in violation by team A? Thus, would team B be given the ball for a throw in at the same spot team A violated?

[just another ref]

If I recall correctly, this situation is not definitively covered in the rules. I would lean on 2-3, put the one second back on the clock,give the ball back to A at the same spot, and sentence the timekeeper to a month at chseagle table camp.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If I recall correctly, this situation is not definitively covered in the rules. I would lean on 2-3, put the one second back on the clock,give the ball back to A at the same spot, and sentence the timekeeper to a month at chseagle table camp.

It's covered now.

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It's covered now.

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Oh, yeah, now I remember. Like some others, part of this interp is not on my list of favorites.

Likely tenths of a second? And what if they are not displayed?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Likely tenths of a second? And what if they are not displayed?

No, no, no, no, no JAR... please don't open that can of worms again.

[Nevadaref]

At least the situation in which the premature clock start/timing error is recognized before the throw-in pass is touched is now definitely covered, and that is what the OP inquired about.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... and sentence the timekeeper to a month at chseagle table camp.

Heh!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Oh, yeah, now I remember. Like some others, part of this interp is not on my list of favorites.

Likely tenths of a second? And what if they are not displayed?

Sounds a lot like the NBA 3/10ths rule - except the NBA ruling gives an actual guideline for what to do.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Sounds a lot like the NBA 3/10ths rule - except the NBA ruling gives an actual guideline for what to do.

I'd be all for a rule change that states that, in the last minute when 10ths are displayed, that any time the clock is not properly started when it should have been that a minimum of 0.3 seconds must be taken from the time. If definite knowledge of the time (a count that reached 1+, etc) exists, then that amount is removed from the clock.

Anything that would give a definitive way of handling a situation would be better than "likely tenths of a second" would be better than the current situation.

[slow whistle]

What if you have a situation similar to OP, but to add a twist...assume A1 has ball for throw-in on endline following made basket by B with Team A up by a point and one second left (assume we are coming back from a time out so the clock is stopped). A1 throws a long pass towards A's frontcourt and A2 who had broken towards frontcourt then breaks hard for backcourt so that the pass is sailing towards nobody. While the pass is in the air heading out of bounds the horn goes off. Then what? In OP had the horn not gone off someone on team A likely touches the ball and the game is over, so fine you give A the ball back and they try again with a second on the clock, however, in this situation it is likely nobody would have touched it and the ball would have gone to Team B for throw-in right under their basket with a second left....the answer has to be the same as with the OP, but in this case the timer just gave team A quite a gift which sucks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

What if you have a situation similar to OP, but to add a twist...assume A1 has ball for throw-in on endline following made basket by B with Team A up by a point and one second left (assume we are coming back from a time out so the clock is stopped). A1 throws a long pass towards A's frontcourt and A2 who had broken towards frontcourt then breaks hard for backcourt so that the pass is sailing towards nobody. While the pass is in the air heading out of bounds the horn goes off. Then what? In OP had the horn not gone off someone on team A likely touches the ball and the game is over, so fine you give A the ball back and they try again with a second on the clock, however, in this situation it is likely nobody would have touched it and the ball would have gone to Team B for throw-in right under their basket with a second left....the answer has to be the same as with the OP, but in this case the timer just gave team A quite a gift which sucks.

Yes, Team B should have played better prior to that moment and not put themselves in that position.

[Juulie Downs]

In the OP, unlike the sitch cited by Nevada, no one touches the ball inbounds. The clock shouldn't have started, and thus is irrelevant to the play, right? Violation on team A, give the ball to B at the original throw-in spot with 1 second on the clock. I can't see that the cited pllay has any relevance at all.

Okay, edited: Just re-read the OP. Players didn't try to catch ball because of horn. Put one second on the clock, give the ball back to A. Still Nevada's sitch doesn't seem relevant here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

In the OP, unlike the sitch cited by Nevada, no one touches the ball inbounds. The clock shouldn't have started, and thus is irrelevant to the play, right? Violation on team A, give the ball to B at the original throw-in spot with 1 second on the clock. I can't see that the cited pllay has any relevance at all.

Okay, edited: Just re-read the OP. Players didn't try to catch ball because of horn. Put one second on the clock, give the ball back to A. Still Nevada's sitch doesn't seem relevant here.

Perhaps you should take yet another look at the posted NFHS Interp. Parts a and b definitely are relevant and are both cases in which the clock shouldn't have started.

You can do a re-edit when you are finished.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, Team B should have played better prior to that moment and not put themselves in that position.

True but you've got quite a mess on your hands..hopefully Team B is home team b/c then they can rip their own timer a new one.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

What if you have a situation similar to OP, but to add a twist...assume A1 has ball for throw-in on endline following made basket by B with Team A up by a point and one second left (assume we are coming back from a time out so the clock is stopped). A1 throws a long pass towards A's frontcourt and A2 who had broken towards frontcourt then breaks hard for backcourt so that the pass is sailing towards nobody. While the pass is in the air heading out of bounds the horn goes off. Then what? In OP had the horn not gone off someone on team A likely touches the ball and the game is over, so fine you give A the ball back and they try again with a second on the clock, however, in this situation it is likely nobody would have touched it and the ball would have gone to Team B for throw-in right under their basket with a second left....the answer has to be the same as with the OP, but in this case the timer just gave team A quite a gift which sucks.

Good gosh, unfortunately, the interp that Nevada cited fits this play very closely from the standpoint that a) there was an obvious timing error and b) the throw-in did not end before the horn. But, wow, this situation could certainly open up the possibility of ultimate "homer" by the home timer if this was the home team's throw-in.

In a way, this is an inadvertent horn. Inadvertent horns are to be ignored by the players. Players should know that the clock does not start until the ball is touched. Since the ball clearly was not touched, the players should have kept playing.

Fairness of the game: Throw-in pass made by Team A, inadvertent horn (ignore horn), ball goes out of bounds untouched, throw-in to Team B at spot of Team A's throw in.

Rules interp cited by Nevada goes against this. But, inadvertent horns are to be ignored. In this case, if the horn is ignored, the ball went out of bounds untouched. 1 second is put on the clock and ball goes to Team B.