End of game situation

[slow whistle]

What if you have a situation similar to OP, but to add a twist...assume A1 has ball for throw-in on endline following made basket by B with Team A up by a point and one second left (assume we are coming back from a time out so the clock is stopped). A1 throws a long pass towards A's frontcourt and A2 who had broken towards frontcourt then breaks hard for backcourt so that the pass is sailing towards nobody. While the pass is in the air heading out of bounds the horn goes off. Then what? In OP had the horn not gone off someone on team A likely touches the ball and the game is over, so fine you give A the ball back and they try again with a second on the clock, however, in this situation it is likely nobody would have touched it and the ball would have gone to Team B for throw-in right under their basket with a second left....the answer has to be the same as with the OP, but in this case the timer just gave team A quite a gift which sucks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

What if you have a situation similar to OP, but to add a twist...assume A1 has ball for throw-in on endline following made basket by B with Team A up by a point and one second left (assume we are coming back from a time out so the clock is stopped). A1 throws a long pass towards A's frontcourt and A2 who had broken towards frontcourt then breaks hard for backcourt so that the pass is sailing towards nobody. While the pass is in the air heading out of bounds the horn goes off. Then what? In OP had the horn not gone off someone on team A likely touches the ball and the game is over, so fine you give A the ball back and they try again with a second on the clock, however, in this situation it is likely nobody would have touched it and the ball would have gone to Team B for throw-in right under their basket with a second left....the answer has to be the same as with the OP, but in this case the timer just gave team A quite a gift which sucks.

Yes, Team B should have played better prior to that moment and not put themselves in that position.

[Juulie Downs]

In the OP, unlike the sitch cited by Nevada, no one touches the ball inbounds. The clock shouldn't have started, and thus is irrelevant to the play, right? Violation on team A, give the ball to B at the original throw-in spot with 1 second on the clock. I can't see that the cited pllay has any relevance at all.

Okay, edited: Just re-read the OP. Players didn't try to catch ball because of horn. Put one second on the clock, give the ball back to A. Still Nevada's sitch doesn't seem relevant here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

In the OP, unlike the sitch cited by Nevada, no one touches the ball inbounds. The clock shouldn't have started, and thus is irrelevant to the play, right? Violation on team A, give the ball to B at the original throw-in spot with 1 second on the clock. I can't see that the cited pllay has any relevance at all.

Okay, edited: Just re-read the OP. Players didn't try to catch ball because of horn. Put one second on the clock, give the ball back to A. Still Nevada's sitch doesn't seem relevant here.

Perhaps you should take yet another look at the posted NFHS Interp. Parts a and b definitely are relevant and are both cases in which the clock shouldn't have started.

You can do a re-edit when you are finished.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, Team B should have played better prior to that moment and not put themselves in that position.

True but you've got quite a mess on your hands..hopefully Team B is home team b/c then they can rip their own timer a new one.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

What if you have a situation similar to OP, but to add a twist...assume A1 has ball for throw-in on endline following made basket by B with Team A up by a point and one second left (assume we are coming back from a time out so the clock is stopped). A1 throws a long pass towards A's frontcourt and A2 who had broken towards frontcourt then breaks hard for backcourt so that the pass is sailing towards nobody. While the pass is in the air heading out of bounds the horn goes off. Then what? In OP had the horn not gone off someone on team A likely touches the ball and the game is over, so fine you give A the ball back and they try again with a second on the clock, however, in this situation it is likely nobody would have touched it and the ball would have gone to Team B for throw-in right under their basket with a second left....the answer has to be the same as with the OP, but in this case the timer just gave team A quite a gift which sucks.

Good gosh, unfortunately, the interp that Nevada cited fits this play very closely from the standpoint that a) there was an obvious timing error and b) the throw-in did not end before the horn. But, wow, this situation could certainly open up the possibility of ultimate "homer" by the home timer if this was the home team's throw-in.

In a way, this is an inadvertent horn. Inadvertent horns are to be ignored by the players. Players should know that the clock does not start until the ball is touched. Since the ball clearly was not touched, the players should have kept playing.

Fairness of the game: Throw-in pass made by Team A, inadvertent horn (ignore horn), ball goes out of bounds untouched, throw-in to Team B at spot of Team A's throw in.

Rules interp cited by Nevada goes against this. But, inadvertent horns are to be ignored. In this case, if the horn is ignored, the ball went out of bounds untouched. 1 second is put on the clock and ball goes to Team B.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Good gosh, unfortunately, the interp that Nevada cited fits this play very closely from the standpoint that a) there was an obvious timing error and b) the throw-in did not end before the horn. But, wow, this situation could certainly open up the possibility of ultimate "homer" by the home timer if this was the home team's throw-in.

In a way, this is an inadvertent horn. Inadvertent horns are to be ignored by the players. Players should know that the clock does not start until the ball is touched. Since the ball clearly was not touched, the players should have kept playing.

Fairness of the game: Throw-in pass made by Team A, inadvertent horn (ignore horn), ball goes out of bounds untouched, throw-in to Team B at spot of Team A's throw in.

Rules interp cited by Nevada goes against this. But, inadvertent horns are to be ignored. In this case, if the horn is ignored, the ball went out of bounds untouched. 1 second is put on the clock and ball goes to Team B.

For the sake of discussion let's just take the horn out of it altogether. Let's assume that rather than a second left there are 5 seconds left when A inbounds and the official notices that the clock started while the ball is sailing through the air to nobody and towards out of bounds. Again in this case the play that Nevada sites would have you give the ball back to A due to the timing error. I don't like it one bit, but I believe the case play supports it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

For the sake of discussion let's just take the horn out of it altogether. Let's assume that rather than a second left there are 5 seconds left when A inbounds and the official notices that the clock started while the ball is sailing through the air to nobody and towards out of bounds. Again in this case the play that Nevada sites would have you give the ball back to A due to the timing error. I don't like it one bit, but I believe the case play supports it.

The way that you have designed this scenario, it would only be true that Team A would have to be given the ball back and the clock reset, IF an official sounded his whistle to interrupt the game action. That is because the game would have to resume at the point of interruption and that point occurred during a throw-in for Team A.

However, if the official was able to allow the throw-in to finish and the violation to occur before the horn and without having to sound his whistle, then the clock could be reset and the ball could be awarded to Team B. The timing error was properly noticed by the official and there was definite knowledge to fix it, but play was not interrupted and the game action which took place stands. Consider this case book ruling, which does NOT state to negate the throw-in or the subsequent violation and award the ball back to Team A.

5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter
and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1
touches the referee on the court and then goes across the court and out of
bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does
the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step
to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come
to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s
rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches
and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that
there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the
throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back
on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the
referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be
rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-
3 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The way that you have designed this scenario, it would only be true that Team A would have to be given the ball back and the clock reset, IF an official sounded his whistle to interrupt the game action. That is because the game would have to resume at the point of interruption and that point occurred during a throw-in for Team A.

However, if the official was able to allow the throw-in to finish and the violation to occur before the horn and without having to sound his whistle, then the clock could be reset and the ball could be awarded to Team B. The timing error was properly noticed by the official and there was definite knowledge to fix it, but play was not interrupted and the game action which took place stands. Consider this case book ruling, which does NOT state to negate the throw-in or the subsequent violation and award the ball back to Team A.

I was R on a game earlier in the year with a combination of these two instances. 1.2 seconds left in 3rd period, close game. Team A with throw-in under opponent's basket. Threw a deep pass that headed out of bounds untouched. Whistle sounded for violation immediately before/simultaneous with horn sounding.

Obviously we put 1.2 back on the clock. We then awarded B the throw-in at the original spot due to the throw-in violation.

Only real question was whether the violation occurred before the horn sounded. Calling official confirmed it did. Pretty easy administration, and both coaches even understood and accepted the explanation.

[jdw3018]

I also tried to respond yesterday and got an error, didn't come back to post it again:

One of the things to remember about this ruling and its relation to "fairness" is that, like many other corrections of errors (including correctable errors), one team is often going to end up feeling shafted. It's often going to make an official feel as if the rule they must enforce is unfair for the situation.

But...there is no way to know which team is getting shafted until the error actually occurs. Perhaps A has broken free in this situation for an easy layup and clear game winner when the horn sounds early. A gets hosed. Perhaps A is in the process of clearly throwing the ball away and now they get to try again. B gets hosed.

The rules can't be written to be applied differently in these situations, and thus "it is what it is." Correctable errors are enforced in such a way that both teams have incentive to have the errors corrected before they occur. Bookkeeping and timing errors may seem to benefit one team if they aren't corrected, but can have significant negative impact on that team if discovered and corrected later.

So, we have what is a very clear way to correct regrettable situations. You just have to accept that many times, one team is going to feel it was unfair.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The way that you have designed this scenario, it would only be true that Team A would have to be given the ball back and the clock reset, IF an official sounded his whistle to interrupt the game action. That is because the game would have to resume at the point of interruption and that point occurred during a throw-in for Team A.

However, if the official was able to allow the throw-in to finish and the violation to occur before the horn and without having to sound his whistle, then the clock could be reset and the ball could be awarded to Team B. The timing error was properly noticed by the official and there was definite knowledge to fix it, but play was not interrupted and the game action which took place stands. Consider this case book ruling, which does NOT state to negate the throw-in or the subsequent violation and award the ball back to Team A.

5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter
and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1
touches the referee on the court and then goes across the court and out of
bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does
the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step
to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come
to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s
rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches
and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that
there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the
throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back
on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the
referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be
rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-
3 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

Good call. You'd just have to hope that the official would not blow the whistle out of habit/inadvertently/whatever you want to call it upon seeing the clock starting pre-maturely....which is why it is best to have a slow whistle

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Good gosh, unfortunately, the interp that Nevada cited fits this play very closely from the standpoint that a) there was an obvious timing error and b) the throw-in did not end before the horn. But, wow, this situation could certainly open up the possibility of ultimate "homer" by the home timer if this was the home team's throw-in.

In a way, this is an inadvertent horn. Inadvertent horns are to be ignored by the players. Players should know that the clock does not start until the ball is touched. Since the ball clearly was not touched, the players should have kept playing.

Fairness of the game: Throw-in pass made by Team A, inadvertent horn (ignore horn), ball goes out of bounds untouched, throw-in to Team B at spot of Team A's throw in.

Rules interp cited by Nevada goes against this. But, inadvertent horns are to be ignored. In this case, if the horn is ignored, the ball went out of bounds untouched. 1 second is put on the clock and ball goes to Team B.

The flaw in your logic is that this is the period-ending horn sounding. This specific signal is the one used by the timer to indicate the expiration of playing time in a quarter or extra period. It is unique in the rules and cannot be ignored. The significance of its sounding is not akin to that of the scorer signaling the officials for their attention to some matter such as subs, a player illegally in the game, a scoring error, etc.