Words can't describe.... this video.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Some officials around here use them anyway for non-tournament games, either (1) to show off that they do college too, or (2) to misleadingly suggest that they do college too.

Or because it's slimming?

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Quite frankly, they should've run him when he charged the official, then when he had a second blow up after the T.

I thought so too. Why didn't they, anyone?

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

That's the rub............From the grainy video, etc that's what you're seeing. The official who is right there may have seen something else. That said,yes, I think he missed a foul from the limited resources I have to view it. I can't be certain. Neither can that coach who is 50-60 feet away.

Reverse the situation and say the trail calls that foul from the coach's location deep in backcourt, You might have opposing coach starring in his own video.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

Let me get this straight from you. Grabbing the arm is always a foul?

Do you have a rules reference for that ruling?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

So you are saying that its not possible for a coach to be correct just because the are farther away or have a different angle? From the video, the players arm was grabbed, and the official was too close to the play, looking back at it.

Are you saying that officials are alway right just because they happen to be closer to the play?

The official that the tirade was directed at was closer to the coach when he stormed the floor and he failed to make a call.

We have all seen plays that officials have failed to make calls on. It is possible that there were previous plays that merited a whistle but were not called that became part of the initial blow up.

Quite frankly, they should've run him when he charged the official, then when he had a second blow up after the T.

I will not speak for JR but I agree with his position on this. I think coaches want it both ways. They want to say they see something across the court better than officials, but then want to tell officials what they should have called based on where they are standing. The official that was in this video was much had a much better angle (on the first play) than the coach any day. And based on what the video showed, the coach was near the end of the bench on the end line area. So he was more than 50 feet away from the play and that does not include who he had to look around to see the entire play. And to really know if the official got this right or wrong, we would need a closer or possibly different angle to tell either way. If the ball was poked out first, then all other contact can and should be ignored if you know how to actually call the game. All contact is not a foul and never was intended to be. So it is really an issue to know what took place first and the nature of the contact as well. We are not going to know that on this video. But we do know that the coach is much further away from the play than the calling officials on this play.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me get this straight from you. Grabbing the arm is always a foul?

Do you have a rules reference for that ruling?

Peace

Grabbing the arm = hold. The hold was on the right forearm of the offensive player and resulted in a possession consequence (advantage not intended by rule) of white losing the ball.

Never said that grabbing (holding) is always a foul. Those are your words. By that logic nothing is a foul.

I understand where everyone is coming from.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Grabbing the arm = hold. The hold was on the right forearm of the offensive player and resulted in a possession consequence (advantage not intended by rule) of white losing the ball.

Never said that grabbing (holding) is always a foul. Those are your words. By that logic nothing is a foul.

I understand where everyone is coming from.

But I see what Jeff's saying, too. If the ball was poked out cleanly and there's a subsequent grab of the arm, it may or may not be a foul.

To me, it looked (on the grainy video) that the arm grab led to the loss of possession, which would be a foul. And the official was in a bad place to see it. Happens. The meltdown that resulted is inexcusable, regardless.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by fullor30

That's the rub...........Neither can that coach who is 50-60 feet away.

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Grabbing the arm = hold. The hold was on the right forearm of the offensive player and resulted in a possession consequence (advantage not intended by rule) of white losing the ball.

Never said that grabbing (holding) is always a foul. Those are your words. By that logic nothing is a foul.

I understand where everyone is coming from.

Then you do not understand where I am coming from. If the ball is poked out first and in an effort to go for the ball some touching of arms and body takes place, it is not a foul unless someone is put at a disadvantage. If you have the ball stolen from you, there better be more than a simple grab to cause a foul. That player better has been put at a disadvantage. And I am not saying anything goes during a loose ball, but when the ball is lose and bodies are flying all over the place, it is not in my experience a good practice just to call a foul because there is some minor body contact or even very brief contact with the arms unless there is a clear disadvantage. And I am using the incidental contact rules to justify that and common practice. It looks to me like the ball was stolen first and then some contact afterward. That may not be the actual case, but I have seen plays like this before and if the illegal contact did not result in the steal, I have got a play on.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

Do you have a rules reference for your safety issue? I am not finding that reference in the rulebook anywhere.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

But I see what Jeff's saying, too. If the ball was poked out cleanly and there's a subsequent grab of the arm, it may or may not be a foul.

To me, it looked (on the grainy video) that the arm grab led to the loss of possession, which would be a foul. And the official was in a bad place to see it. Happens. The meltdown that resulted is inexcusable, regardless.

Rich

I have agreed with everything you said. I also said I understand everyone's points.

Arm grab resulted in loss of possession. The official was in a bad place. I previously stated that the coach should've gotten the boot for his second outburst that involved shoving players, throwing clipboard/notebook, rather than waiting until the end of the game. BTW, reading the scoreboard the home team (in white) was up 3 with 20 +/- seconds to go, the coach was not too bright to get up and complain when he likely knew he had the "seatbelt."

My contention is that just because the distance by the coach is greater than that of the officials is not in itself a reason to dismiss the belief that the coach has a legitimate complaint. How he decided to express his complaint is another issue.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

I call a great game from 10 rows up. For one thing, I'm focused on what I'm watching or better said only need to concentrate on view of my choice. There's no pressure, and you do get a great perspective from a distance . I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I call a great game from 10 rows up. For one thing, I'm focused on what I'm watching or better said only need to concentrate on view of my choice. There's no pressure, and you do get a great perspective from a distance . I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

Right. But look at where the trail is when the ball is poked out (hold or no hold). Is that really the best place to see that? Freeze the action. Wouldn't it have been a better look if the T had slowed down a bit and stayed out towards the division line more?

We can argue all day if it's a foul or not, but I'd rather focus on what could be done a little differently, if anything. I'm not saying that official didn't do the best he could in a high paced up and down sequence, just would rather talk about that than whether or not a grainy YouTube video shows a foul or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

Yes that is my point.

Peace