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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 11:19am
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Rules questions...

First scenario:
Player from team A is taking the ball out of bounds underneath team B's basket. He attempts to throw the ball long, but it hits the underneath portion of the backboard. The ball bounces directly to the floor. Once he establishes positioning on the court, can player A be the first person to touch the ball?

Second scenario:
Player from team A attempts to throw a skip pass to a teammate from one corner to the other. The pass strikes the side of the rim and caroms back to the passer. Can he retrieve the pass without committing a violation?
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 11:34am
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Good Questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter2 View Post
First scenario: Player from team A is taking the ball out of bounds underneath team B's basket. He attempts to throw the ball long, but it hits the underneath portion of the backboard. The ball bounces directly to the floor. Once he establishes positioning on the court, can player A be the first person to touch the ball?
Rule 9-2-6: The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.
The case you cite, if properly called, results in a violation. The fact that it hits the the underneath portion of the backboard is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter2 View Post
Second scenario: Player from team A attempts to throw a skip pass to a teammate from one corner to the other. The pass strikes the side of the rim and caroms back to the passer. Can he retrieve the pass without committing a violation?
Casebook 9.5 seems similar: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.
Though not perfectly parallel, a valid assessment of the case you cite might be drawn from this similar situation. No violation.

Others will no doubt give better (or correct?) answers shortly, I'm sure.
Thank you for prompting me to review these rules and situations!

Last edited by Freddy; Sat Jan 09, 2010 at 11:37am.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter2 View Post
Player from team A is taking the ball out of bounds underneath team B's basket. He attempts to throw the ball long, but it hits the underneath portion of the backboard. The ball bounces directly to the floor. Once he establishes positioning on the court, can player A be the first person to touch the ball?
No. 9-2-5: The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it
touches or is touched by another player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter2 View Post
Player from team A attempts to throw a skip pass to a teammate from one corner to the other. The pass strikes the side of the rim and caroms back to the passer. Can he retrieve the pass without committing a violation?
Good question. Unfortunately, I believe that this is one of those situations where the NFHS wants us to become mind readers.

1) Official deems this a try: He can legally retrieve the pass, and may legally start a dribble.
2) Official deems this to be a pass, not a fumble, and the player did not start a dribble, or lift a pivot foot, before he passed: Player can legally either legally pick up the end of his "dribble", or he can legally continue his dribble by batting the ball to the floor.
3) Official deems this to be a pass, not a fumble, and the player has already started, and stopped, his dribble before he passes: He cannot legally retrieve the pass.

Freddy posted while I was typing my answer, so I will help him out by posting his citation. After Freddy's post, I'm not so sure of my answer #3 above. I'm sure an esteemed member will be along shortly to help us out.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-2; Fundamental 19)

I also like Freddy's post of, "Thank you for prompting me to review these rules and situations!". That's why I log onto the Forum everyday, to review rules and situations, and I've been officiating almost thirty years. One can never stop reviewing rules and situations, and you can teach an old dog new tricks.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jan 09, 2010 at 11:52am.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2) Official deems this to be a pass, not a fumble, and the player did not start a dribble, or lift a pivot foot, before he passed: Player can legally either legally pick up the end of his "dribble", or he can legally continue his dribble by batting the ball to the floor.
Not quite correct, BillyMac: as the case you cite shows, throwing the ball against one's own backboard does not constitute the start of a dribble. The player can catch this ball and then dribble without violating in your situation.

That said, I doubt I would rule this a pass if it hits the rim and rebounds to the shooter.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm sure an esteemed member will be along shortly to help us out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Not quite correct, BillyMac: as the case you cite shows, throwing the ball against one's own backboard does not constitute the start of a dribble. The player can catch this ball and then dribble without violating in your situation.
"Ask and ye shall receive." (Matthew)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jan 09, 2010 at 12:37pm.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 02:47pm
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In the first scenario, I'm thinking that an attempted long pass that hits the bottom and "bounces directly to the floor" has partially hit the back of the backboard, and would therefore be a throw-in violation. Obviously HTBT in order to really be sure what "bounces directly to the floor" really means.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2010, 03:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
In the first scenario, I'm thinking that an attempted long pass that hits the bottom and "bounces directly to the floor" has partially hit the back of the backboard, and would therefore be a throw-in violation. Obviously HTBT in order to really be sure what "bounces directly to the floor" really means.
Why would you think that?

He said that the ball hit the "underneath portion" of the backboard, not the back of the backboard. The bottom of the backboard is in play. And....if the ball "bounces directly to the floor" either straight down or forward, that's perfectly legal also.

Legal play imo from the original description...unless he lied to us.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2010, 01:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Why would you think that?

He said that the ball hit the "underneath portion" of the backboard, not the back of the backboard. The bottom of the backboard is in play. And....if the ball "bounces directly to the floor" either straight down or forward, that's perfectly legal also.

Legal play imo from the original description...unless he lied to us.
Basic physics. He may have said it hit the underneath portion but his description of the action doesn't fit that conclusion.

The only way for the ball to loose all of its forward momentum and go straight down is from some contact with the back of the board. Contact with only the bottom surface of the board would have only changed the up/down component of the balls movement and the ball would have proceeded beyond the backboard.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2010, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Basic physics. He may have said it hit the underneath portion but his description of the action doesn't fit that conclusion.

The only way for the ball to loose all of its forward momentum and go straight down is from some contact with the back of the board. Contact with only the bottom surface of the board would have only changed the up/down component of the balls movement and the ball would have proceeded beyond the backboard.
I guess that the NFHS rulesmakers don't understand basic physics then. Years ago they issued a ruling on this that said that a end-line throw-in that hit the board and went straight down or forward was OK, but one that bounced backward towards the endline had to be a violation.

Stoopid NFHS rulesmaker monkeys.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2010, 04:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
I guess that the NFHS rulesmakers don't understand basic physics then. Years ago they issued a ruling on this that said that a end-line throw-in that hit the board and went straight down or forward was OK, but one that bounced backward towards the endline had to be a violation.

Stoopid NFHS rulesmaker monkeys.
Correct. Backboards have rounded padding. The ball can easily hit the padding without hitting the back of the backboard and go directly down. If the ball hits the back, it's not going straight down. It's going backwards.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2010, 07:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
I guess that the NFHS rulesmakers don't understand basic physics then. Years ago they issued a ruling on this that said that a end-line throw-in that hit the board and went straight down or forward was OK, but one that bounced backward towards the endline had to be a violation.

Stoopid NFHS rulesmaker monkeys.
I guess they don't. There is no way it can stop moving forward without somthing pushing it back...and the only thing that can do that is something facing back.

And it is only logical that the back facing part of any padding would be an extension of the back of the board itself.

That wouldn't be the first or last time someone issued a ruling void if any intelligence.
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