Questioning my T

[j51969]

Originally Posted by JoeT

The NFHS disagrees with you. You're the one who said "per the rule book" then made up your own verbiage. I quoted the NFHS. If my player is going to the hoop with a hand on his or her hip, you're supposed to call it. The more you don't, the worse the game gets.

Refereeing advantage/dis-advantage sometimes allows players to play through some of this contact. If the NFHS book was used in its literal form without exception many games would turn into free-throw shooting contests. This is exception not the rule. Without knowing the level of skill of your team and the competition first hand I can't say for sure. But on a particular night its something to consider.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by j51969

Refereeing advantage/dis-advantage sometimes allows players to play through some of this contact. If the NFHS book was used in its literal form without exception many games would turn into free-throw shooting contests. This is exception not the rule. Without knowing the level of skill of your team and the competition first hand I can't say for sure. But on a particular night its something to consider.

Forgive me, but I'm going to pick on your wording just a bit here. A literal use of the rule book requires us to determine if an advantage has been gained by the contact. Look at the definitions of "foul" and "incidental contact" in the rule book, and this becomes clear.

The dilemma is that different officials have different ways of determining an advantage. While the NFHS may want us to use a lower threshold for hand checks than for rebounds, there still needs to be some determined advantage (impeding, holding, pushing, etc.) in order for there to be a foul.

I picked on this wording because of the common phrase, "a foul is a foul." While it's a truism, it's a misleading one that assumes "contact" = "foul," and that officials have to figure out which fouls to call. That's not the case; we have to determine which contact is a foul, and call all the fouls.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Forgive me, but I'm going to pick on your wording just a bit here. A literal use of the rule book requires us to determine if an advantage has been gained by the contact. Look at the definitions of "foul" and "incidental contact" in the rule book, and this becomes clear.

The dilemma is that different officials have different ways of determining an advantage. While the NFHS may want us to use a lower threshold for hand checks than for rebounds, there still needs to be some determined advantage (impeding, holding, pushing, etc.) in order for there to be a foul.

I picked on this wording because of the common phrase, "a foul is a foul." While it's a truism, it's a misleading one that assumes "contact" = "foul," and that officials have to figure out which fouls to call. That's not the case; we have to determine which contact is a foul, and call all the fouls.

Not a problem. I like your explanation better than mine. I am just simple

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm late to the party, and it looks like the fun has already begun.

Some random thoughts:

• The T was clearly deserved. No question.
• Negative behavior never lengthens a leash. If you allow a coach some extra leash in a certain situation, you still decide where the leash ends.
• Coaches are grown ups, and must act that way. Our empathy or sympathy must never extend to allowing a coach to behave badly.
• Snaqs is right, address behavior early. Early, a quiet word is often sufficient. One example: I worked a freshman tourney last weekend where a team was getting blown out in the third quarter. The coach, who had not previously been a problem, began to referee. I slid over next to her at the next opportunity and quietly asked, "Coach, are we okay?" Then I listened to her reply (which was not very reassuring). But she went back to coaching and that was the end of that. Sometimes it really is that easy.
• An official must develop a clear, comprehensive philosophy for managing blowouts. Knowing already how we will call the game, control the game and handle the coaches in a blowout both improves the game and reduces anxiety about whether to whack a coach.
• You write as though the crew chose which fouls to call based on managing the number of foul calls rather than managing the game. It is best to pre-game specifically where the crew will draw its various lines, then consistently call to those lines from the very first play. By the first quarter break the participants should know that tonight you're allowing "x" but not allowing "y".
• If you worry about calling "too many" hand checks, don't stop calling, start talking. Tell the kid, "Hands off!". If he does it again, call the foul then find him at a dead ball and tell him, "I'm trying to keep your number out of the book, help me out here." He'll either adapt or he will soon bench himself. Either way you will have called only the fouls necessary to clean up the game.

As always, just my $0.02

[Jimmie24]

Don't question your T. Coach deserved it long before he got it. A sitting coach is usually a very quiet coach. A quiet coach makes for a nicer game. A smart coach realized where the officials line is drawn and will not cross it. If he chooses to cross it, then he knows what the expected result is.

The best thing any official can do is communicate with the coaches and players. Tell the players to get their hands off. Call a few early, they will get the picture and start playing without their hands. Let the coaches know when he is pushing the line. But still talk to them. I agree some coaches do talk down and seem as if they want to try and pull something over on you. No matter, treat and talk to them as you want to them to treat and talk to you. Until they cross the line. Give them the T before you become emotionally involved. You will feel better about it.

I love how a coaches defense is always "well have you coached?" Does that really matter? Lots of great officials have never coached before. Doesn't mean that they love the game any less. Doesn't mean that they know the game any less. Coaches and officials need to realize that it isn't about them. This game is all about the kids. We can play without coaches, or at least another will step in, but can you play without the officials? Mutual respect goes a long ways.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Yes, I have. Before I began reffing, I coached for three years in a intra-collegiate basketball league. It, basically, was a glorified intramural league, but with tryouts and a draft and a lot more structure than your usual intramural league.

And I'd have to say that I never viewed the officials the way I do now. I knew nothing about advantage/disadvantage, I was unaware of all the intricacies of officiating, the rules I thought I knew and actually didn't, etc etc.

In other words, I thought I knew a whole lot about officiating until I put on a shirt and whistle and stepped out onto the court. Then I found out I knew squat.

I respect coaches to a point. I don't think, for the most part (emphasis added), coaches at my level (JV and below) respect officials. They don't respect what our job actually is (as opposed to what they perceive it to be). They don't respect our calls. They don't respect us as human beings, from the way they treat us (yelling, rolling their eyes, stomping their feet, talking down, etc etc). Oh, they do during the coaches meeting, and they smile and shake hands, but once the ball is tipped they become totally different people.

95% or more of coaches, I would say, have never taken the time to not just dig into the rule book, but spend a summer reffing in their local rec league to see what it's like. So they don't know what it's like on the other side of the court. They don't know what it's like to work your ace off learning the rules and applying them on the court and doing your damndest to make sure you call a fair game and still be looked at and treated like you just killed someone's children because you dared to call a foul on someone. And they never will. And that's our job to deal with that fact.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I'm going to go out on a very large limb here and say that, in my opinion, having done both, that officials have a much harder job, within the context of one basketball game, than do coaches.

Your job as a coach is to maximize the play of your team.

My job is to be judge, jury and executioner (in some cases). It is our job, as officials, to be God out on the court. We decide what is a foul and what is not.

Furthermore, coaches think it's their job to do whatever humanly possible in order to (I'm trying to think of the most respectful word here) influence the officials into calling a game that gives an advantage to their team. Whether conscious or subconscious, most coaches do this with what they talk to us about, when and how they scream at us, and their behavior in general.

The best coach, to me, is a coach who asks me questions calmly and respectfully, or doesn't talk to me at all. I make a habit of initiating as little communication as possible with coaches because I've found that it has a way of biting me in the behind. So, in that way, my job becomes harder.

Sad thing is, those coaches are very hard to find.

Boy, I'm really starting to sound like a hardened cynic, aren't I?

Originally Posted by fiasco

Well, I do my part, but I'm considered T-happy.

From reading your responses, I see somebody who today is where I was not that long ago. I realize that to some degree you're venting your general frustrations at some coaches and their "feedback". But I also see signs of having the wrong attitude and being the victim of your own lack of skills.

If you are going to make this thing work for you, you have got to do a few things well that you don't seem to be doing very well right now. You've got to be able to communicate effectively with everybody involved: partners, players, coaches, table crew, everybody. That especially means engaging (not necessarily confronting) coaches when there is an issue, not running away from them. You've got to be able to call the obvious and what matters, control the game, and do it all consistently. You're going to have to be around a while, so people have time to learn to trust you. And you've got to exude a positive attitude and show due respect toward the game and each of the participants.

You're off to a good start, and you've made some important discoveries, including that most coaches don't know the rules very well. So, now how do you take what you have learned and what you can now do and use your knowledge and skills to bridge that gap? Because the game is about them, not about us. We're just the facilitators.

[constable]

My philosophy is this:

The only technicals I regret are the ones I didn't call.

I do baseball as well. I can't tell you how many T's I've called or people I've tossed ( in both sports) but I can with a pretty good amount of certainty tell you the players and coaches that I didn't T up or throw out when I should have.

Been firm but fair. Develop your own threshold but remember not to allow unsporting behaviour to go unpunished for too long. If you don't deal with a problem in the first quarter, it will only multiply by the time the 4th rolls around.

Finally, penalize any and all personal attacks- Do your job is a classic example of one.

[BillyMac]

Defender places both hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
Defender continuously places a hand on the ball-handler, it is a foul.
Defender continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
If the dribbler’s rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul.

Also. If dribbler's going east/west, less likely to call a hand check.
Conversely. If dribbler's going north/south, more likely to call a hand check.

And finally, advantage/disadvantage must be considerd in the case of hand checks.

This is not always an easy call.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

From reading your responses, I see somebody who today is where I was not that long ago. I realize that to some degree you're venting your general frustrations at some coaches and their "feedback". But I also see signs of having the wrong attitude and being the victim of your own lack of skills.

If you are going to make this thing work for you, you have got to do a few things well that you don't seem to be doing very well right now. You've got to be able to communicate effectively with everybody involved: partners, players, coaches, table crew, everybody. That especially means engaging (not necessarily confronting) coaches when there is an issue, not running away from them. You've got to be able to call the obvious and what matters, control the game, and do it all consistently. You're going to have to be around a while, so people have time to learn to trust you. And you've got to exude a positive attitude and show due respect toward the game and each of the participants.

You're off to a good start, and you've made some important discoveries, including that most coaches don't know the rules very well. So, now how do you take what you have learned and what you can now do and use your knowledge and skills to bridge that gap? Because the game is about them, not about us. We're just the facilitators.

I tried my best to apply this last night in my girls JV game. I was R, so in my conference I made a point to have a positive, upbeat attitude with the coaches and let them know we'd appreciate communication with them.

Did it do any good? Not really.

End of 1st quarter, I'm T as the clock is expiring. B1 has the ball and jumps into A1, who jumps vertically to block the shot. There is a good amount of contact, but I have nothing, as B1 jumped into A1's vertical space.

Well, B coach isn't please with my call. Normally, I would ignore him and talk to my partner during the break between quarters, but, trying to take your (and others' advice), I go over to talk to him. I'm calm, I'm pleasant, I explain to him that his player jumped INTO the other player, therefore there's no foul even though there was contact.

He laughs at me (nothing outrageous, more of a sarcastic chuckle), rolls his eyes, and says "whatever." He is ice cold to me the rest of the game.

Yes, this was just one game, and it's not going to keep me from working on my communication, but I'm honestly convinced at this point it is less me and more the coaches. They don't want to be reasoned with.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

...
Well, B coach isn't please with my call. Normally, I would ignore him and talk to my partner during the break between quarters, but, trying to take your (and others' advice), I go over to talk to him. I'm calm, I'm pleasant, I explain to him that his player jumped INTO the other player, therefore there's no foul even though there was contact.

...

No need to go over to the coach on a situation like this. If you so happened to be near him and he comments, then yes, a quick and short reply may be appropriate. But don't go out your way to explain, especially a play as basic as the one in question.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Yes, this was just one game, and it's not going to keep me from working on my communication, but I'm honestly convinced at this point it is less me and more the coaches. They don't want to be reasoned with.

Fiasco,
I don't reason with my dogs and I don't reason with coaches. I don't plead, I don't cajole, I don't care if they "get it". It is them.When my dogs pee in the house its not me being a bad owner, its them being coaches.. I'm glad I'm learned this part of my game. The communication skills I have with my dogs, I mean the coaches, make my games go nicely.

I'm polite,professional, and have a good attitude.

They ask a legimate question, I started out giving them stock replys. Billy Mac has several cut and pastes in regards to these stock replys.

Here's an Example.

Coach: Thats a foul. There was contact, or pushing or whatever.
Me: Coach all contact is not a foul.

I had about 3 or 4 of these stock answers. I could memorize all of them and one of the four would usually apply to the given situation. That worked till I was ready to freelance.

Coach chirping/reffing. Stock answer " I'll ref. You coach"

I lived and breathe the 3 P's.

If it's personal, profane, or persistent = one big FAT T..

Though I usually don't let the persistent go. I address it and it ends voluntarily or I end it. LAst night Asst Coach barking loud in the first MINUTE, first chance I got I had a quick little chat with Head Coach. Problem solved.

Keep it simple. And remember it is them ,but we still need to work with them,

even if we have to rub their noses in their pee sometimes. Just kidding but it sounded funny to me.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I tried my best to apply this last night in my girls JV game. I was R, so in my conference I made a point to have a positive, upbeat attitude with the coaches and let them know we'd appreciate communication with them.

Did it do any good? Not really.

End of 1st quarter, I'm T as the clock is expiring. B1 has the ball and jumps into A1, who jumps vertically to block the shot. There is a good amount of contact, but I have nothing, as B1 jumped into A1's vertical space.

Well, B coach isn't please with my call. Normally, I would ignore him and talk to my partner during the break between quarters, but, trying to take your (and others' advice), I go over to talk to him. I'm calm, I'm pleasant, I explain to him that his player jumped INTO the other player, therefore there's no foul even though there was contact.

He laughs at me (nothing outrageous, more of a sarcastic chuckle), rolls his eyes, and says "whatever." He is ice cold to me the rest of the game.

Yes, this was just one game, and it's not going to keep me from working on my communication, but I'm honestly convinced at this point it is less me and more the coaches. They don't want to be reasoned with.

In a later post you say you answered a question. But here you state he disagreed. I made a call Monday night as L. Offensive player in post pushed defender and received an entry pass for an easy bucket. Except for the whistle. Coach said something like "THAT is you first call?" Of course it wasn't. And if he had asked what was the foul I would have answered him. It would not have served any purpose to engage him. Did not have any problems with him the balance of the game. But it sounds like you went over to offer free advice. Comments are either ignored or whistled if there has been ABS. It does you no good to go looking for the coach to explain something.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

...
End of 1st quarter, I'm T as the clock is expiring. B1 has the ball and jumps into A1, who jumps vertically to block the shot. There is a good amount of contact, but I have nothing, as B1 jumped into A1's vertical space.

Well, B coach isn't please with my call. Normally, I would ignore him and talk to my partner during the break between quarters, but, trying to take your (and others' advice), I go over to talk to him. I'm calm, I'm pleasant, I explain to him that his player jumped INTO the other player, therefore there's no foul even though there was contact.

...

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No need to go over to the coach on a situation like this. If you so happened to be near him and he comments, then yes, a quick and short reply may be appropriate. But don't go out your way to explain, especially a play as basic as the one in question.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I was T on the play next to the benches. He was asking why it was not a foul.

After the quarter is over you are no longer the Trail next to the his bench, you should now be somewhere along the division line waiting for the 2nd quarter to start. In your own words you say "I go over to talk to him". That's what my answer to you addresses.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

He laughs at me (nothing outrageous, more of a sarcastic chuckle), rolls his eyes, and says "whatever." He is ice cold to me the rest of the game.

My take? It worked. I'm guessing that "ice cold" means he didn't speak to you. You answered his question. He doesn't have to like it, but now he knows you at least saw the play. His response was classic teenage defensive.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I tried my best to apply this last night in my girls JV game. I was R, so in my conference I made a point to have a positive, upbeat attitude with the coaches and let them know we'd appreciate communication with them.

Did it do any good? Not really.

End of 1st quarter, I'm T as the clock is expiring. B1 has the ball and jumps into A1, who jumps vertically to block the shot. There is a good amount of contact, but I have nothing, as B1 jumped into A1's vertical space.

Well, B coach isn't please with my call. Normally, I would ignore him and talk to my partner during the break between quarters, but, trying to take your (and others' advice), I go over to talk to him. I'm calm, I'm pleasant, I explain to him that his player jumped INTO the other player, therefore there's no foul even though there was contact.

He laughs at me (nothing outrageous, more of a sarcastic chuckle), rolls his eyes, and says "whatever." He is ice cold to me the rest of the game.

Yes, this was just one game, and it's not going to keep me from working on my communication, but I'm honestly convinced at this point it is less me and more the coaches. They don't want to be reasoned with.

First of all, you are to be commended for attempting to implement some of the suggestions made, here.

Originally Posted by jdw3018

What's most important to remember is that no coach is the same. Neither are any of us. Each of us will have a style of communication that works for us, and each coach will have a different approach to interacting with officials. If the worse thing that happens is that after you approach a coach to communicate about a call is that he goes ice cold on you the rest of the night, I'd keep doing what you're doing.

An important thing for all referees to remember.

Fiasco, the fact that you have tried to implement a different plan is a sign you want to improve. Some of your posts have tended be be argumentative, in my opinion. Staying level-headed is the sign of a good official.

When you read posts from others, YOU have to decide which posts contain suggestions that you want to try to implement and which ones you decide not to implement. No one on this Board is perfect. Therefore, you have to decide how to implement these suggestions by deciding which ones you want to use and which ones you choose to ignore.

Officiating is hard. It takes years of experience to become a truly effective official. Coaching is hard. It takes years of experience to become a truly effeective coach. It takes trial and error to decide what works best for YOU as an official in terms of communicating with coaches.

Good luck!!!!