Questioning my T

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JoeT

That may be.... You definitely can't when you start deciding which rules to enforce.

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials. You think my job out there is to be a robot, and call everything the way you see it, as if I have some magic goggles that allow me to see things from a coach's perspective.

If I literally enforced every rule in the book to the T (no pun intended) as you suggest, you would not recognize the game as "basketball." It would be a free-throw shooting contest.

There is a concept called advantage/disadvantage that you should really learn about. We officials have to master this concept, or we don't last long because coaches like you complain that we never let their girls "play ball."

Like I said, can't win with you guys...

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials. You think my job out there is to be a robot, and call everything the way you see it, as if I have some magic goggles that allow me to see things from a coach's perspective.

If I literally enforced every rule in the book to the T (no pun intended) as you suggest, you would not recognize the game as "basketball." It would be a free-throw shooting contest.

There is a concept called advantage/disadvantage that you should really learn about. We officials have to master this concept, or we don't last long because coaches like you complain that we never let their girls "play ball."

Like I said, can't win with you guys...

Hard to believe that there was NO DISADVANTAGE for a girl who was overmatched and was being ridden like a horse for 20 feet!!!

There are many difficult (and bad coaches). In the case of the coach in this thread (Joe T), I think he has been reasonable in stating his case.

My question to you is "have you ever coached?" I think the one thing that has helped me as an official more than anything else over the years of officiating is my experience as a coach. I can appreciate all of the hard work that they put in preparing their team for a game. I respect that. I respect them.

Consequently, I have tended to get along with coaches from teams that are winning and teams that are losing. I don't take a lot of grief from them -- quite honestly, I usually don't hear a whole lot. Yet, they know when the respect is no longer mutual during a game, I have to take action with the proper penalTy.

One of my pet peeves is the huge divide that officals create with coaches AND coaches create with officials. We each have a VERY difficult job to do. If we work together, the outcomes are usually pleasant.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by fiasco

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials.

Oh please, I was an official for almost 10 years - check the "join date" on my post. You didn't describe it as incidental contact; you said it was a handcheck. The rule book (which some people only seem to like when it suits them to mis-quote it) says specifically that handchecks are not incidental contact, and it's been a repeated POE to ask officials to be more diligent about enforcing it.

If you look back at my earlier posts, I agreed that there is incidental contact that should not be called. By YOUR description, these were "handchecks" that were not called "because it was a JV game" and the girl "rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side."

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Well, get ready to attack me, I guess...

I know how you all hate us coaches sometimes, and we often deserve it. I'm not condoning the coach's reaction in this situation, but please try to understand where it came from and to own some of your own mismanagement that contributed to the situation you describe. By your own description, you're picking and choosing to set aside certain rules and calls for whatever reasons you have. Then, from this coach's perspective, you choose to enforce another rule that hurts his team. That is tremendously frustrating. As a coach who regularly works with very underpowered teams, I am painfully aware how a choice not to call handchecks ("because it's a JV game") gives a distinct advantage to the team that was more powerful in the first place.

If it's a handcheck - on my kid or on theirs - please call it. I often feel that my choice to teach legal "keep-your-hands-off-and-move-your-feet" defense puts my kids at a disadvantage in games where officials decide that a hand (or armbar) on the hip is going to be OK that day.

Not to mention, I've had at least one situation where this was happening, and I earned a tech for chirping about it. Nevertheless, after the tech, the officials started getting the opponents' hands off. I hate having to "take one" just to get the game called by the rules, but I have to admit, getting that tech improved the game for my players.

All contact is not a foul coach... per the rule book. If no advantage is gained (does not affect rhythm, speed, quickness or balance) then a foul does not exist.

I will give you an example... Your girl is driving to the basket and the defender has her hand on your players hip. However, it does not affect your player and she is beating her to the hoop for a layup. By your response above, we should call a foul and give you the ball out of bounds or let your player shoot free throws (and she may be no good at those!) rather than let her continue the drive and score the easy lay-up. That sounds like great defense by the refs imo.

My point is there is no absolute when it comes to this kind of foul (unless its NCAA men where John Adams has stated that a two hand hand check is an absolute). So when you are chirping that they have there hands on them, you may be right but it is not necessarily a foul.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

All contact is not a foul coach... per the rule book. If no advantage is gained (does not affect rhythm, speed, quickness or balance) then a foul does not exist.

I agree. And the OP himself didn't call this incidental contact with the hands. He called it a "handcheck" - which is a foul per the rule book. The OP never suggested that these weren't called because they were incidental, he said they weren't called because "it was a JV game" and "every player would have fouled out."

From one of the NFHS presentations on POEs:

Rough Play – Hand-checking

• Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the ball handler/dribbler or other offensive players away from the ball
• Contact is NOT incidental

And from the 08-09 POEs:

Hand-checking. Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics.

So you're right - per the rule book, it does not constitute "an advantage" but rather "a tremendous advantage."

PS - I'm sorry to get snippy, but contrary to what you might read on this board, some of us work just as hard as officials to understand the rules. I have my rulebook in my game binder right behind "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

[BBall_Junkie]

Sorry coach....Hand checking does not always create a "tremendous advantage" and in many cases it creates no advantage... If it doesn't create an advantage it wont be called by me or my crew. Sorry coach, but I am not out there to blow my whistle when it isn't needed (the athletes don't want that, the fans don't want that, officiating supervisors don't want it and almost every coach out there doesn't want it). The last thing I want to do it take away two points with a whistle and comeout with a "tweet-- hand check-- no basket" and if you are honest with yourself... you don't want it either.

Its knowing when an advantage is created is what seperates the good officials from the average to poor ones.

Get snippy all you want, it doesn't change anything.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

Sorry coach....Hand checking does not always create a "tremendous advantage" and in many cases it creates no advantage... If it doesn't create an advantage it wont be called by me or my crew. Sorry coach, but I am not out there to blow my whistle when it isn't needed (the athletes don't want that, the fans don't want that, officiating supervisors don't want it and almost every coach out there doesn't want it). The last thing I want to do it take away two points with a whistle and comeout with a "tweet-- hand check-- no basket" and if you are honest with yourself... you don't want it either.

Its knowing when an advantage is created is what seperates the good officials from the average to poor ones.

Get snippy all you want, it doesn't change anything.

The NFHS disagrees with you. You're the one who said "per the rule book" then made up your own verbiage. I quoted the NFHS. If my player is going to the hoop with a hand on his or her hip, you're supposed to call it. The more you don't, the worse the game gets.

[Scratch85]

Advantage/Disadvantage; I have heard this so much lately that it hardly makes sense to me anymore. I think we have taken it too far and use it too frequently to avoid making calls that should be made. Or we use it as a bailout when we fail to make a call that we feel we should have made.

Most of the time when I hear it used, it is interpreted only as creating a disadvantage for the offensive player. It is rarely referenced when a defensive player gains an advantage. As in a hand being used on an opponent acting as an aid in starting or stopping. It doesn't disadvantage the offense by limiting their movement, but is does advantage the defense by aiding their movement.

I'm not taking sides concerning the posters involved in this discussion but I think we as officials need to seriously think how we interpret Advantage/Disadvantage and "see the entire play." I think, as a group, we frequently incorrectly overuse each concept.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by JoeT

I agree. And the OP himself didn't call this incidental contact with the hands. He called it a "handcheck" - which is a foul per the rule book. The OP never suggested that these weren't called because they were incidental, he said they weren't called because "it was a JV game" and "every player would have fouled out."

From one of the NFHS presentations on POEs:



And from the 08-09 POEs:



So you're right - per the rule book, it does not constitute "an advantage" but rather "a tremendous advantage."

PS - I'm sorry to get snippy, but contrary to what you might read on this board, some of us work just as hard as officials to understand the rules. I have my rulebook in my game binder right behind "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

JoeT,

You have presented your case and provided references to support your position. There are time where some want to present their subjective perspective to suit their point of view.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?

Originally Posted by JoeT

Well, get ready to attack me, I guess...

I know how you all hate us coaches sometimes, and we often deserve it. I'm not condoning the coach's reaction in this situation, but please try to understand where it came from and to own some of your own mismanagement that contributed to the situation you describe. By your own description, you're picking and choosing to set aside certain rules and calls for whatever reasons you have. Then, from this coach's perspective, you choose to enforce another rule that hurts his team. That is tremendously frustrating. As a coach who regularly works with very underpowered teams, I am painfully aware how a choice not to call handchecks ("because it's a JV game") gives a distinct advantage to the team that was more powerful in the first place.

If it's a handcheck - on my kid or on theirs - please call it. I often feel that my choice to teach legal "keep-your-hands-off-and-move-your-feet" defense puts my kids at a disadvantage in games where officials decide that a hand (or armbar) on the hip is going to be OK that day.
Not to mention, I've had at least one situation where this was happening, and I earned a tech for chirping about it. Nevertheless, after the tech, the officials started getting the opponents' hands off. I hate having to "take one" just to get the game called by the rules, but I have to admit, getting that tech improved the game for my players.

Fiasco,
First of all, I am definitely not known for being anything but patient with coaches, BUT, I must confess, I would have issued the "T" long before you did.

These are the situations that drive coaches CRAZY -- ESPECIALLY if they are overmatched!!! You and your partner know that a team is overmatched, yet your partner allows the opponent to ride the player for TWENTY FEET and BOTH your partner and YOU -- perhaps a little too much ball watching, here in my opinion -- PASS???

I have done my share of girls subvarsity games in the past. Some of these games are ugly no matter what we do to avoid it. But, in this case, by allowing the team that was dominating the game to ride a player all the way to the baseline (what if the point guard really wanted to get to the basket, but the defender's hands/arms pushed her to the baseline/endline instead?), you and your partner were at least partially responsible for the situation. If BOTH of you passed on the FOUL, why not pass on the travel, too???

In my opinion (I WAS NOT THERE, this is JUST AN EDUCATED GUESS), you did not issue a technical foul because you were not comfortable doing so, earlier. My guess is that you do not feel that the game was well played. You also did not think it was particularly well officiated, either.

Try to keep your focus. Call handchecks when they cause the dribbler to go in a particular direction -- particularly if the hand stays in contact with the dribbler. Make foul calls to keep the game in control. It is up to the coaches to teach the players to play within the rules. It is NOT our jobs to modify the rules because the coaches have failed to teach them.

Just my $.02 from a coach with over 30 years experience and a referee for well over a decade.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?

What do you think? Really nothing to think about.