Questioning my T

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Well, get ready to attack me, I guess...

I know how you all hate us coaches sometimes, and we often deserve it. I'm not condoning the coach's reaction in this situation, but please try to understand where it came from and to own some of your own mismanagement that contributed to the situation you describe. By your own description, you're picking and choosing to set aside certain rules and calls for whatever reasons you have. Then, from this coach's perspective, you choose to enforce another rule that hurts his team. That is tremendously frustrating. As a coach who regularly works with very underpowered teams, I am painfully aware how a choice not to call handchecks ("because it's a JV game") gives a distinct advantage to the team that was more powerful in the first place.

If it's a handcheck - on my kid or on theirs - please call it. I often feel that my choice to teach legal "keep-your-hands-off-and-move-your-feet" defense puts my kids at a disadvantage in games where officials decide that a hand (or armbar) on the hip is going to be OK that day.

Not to mention, I've had at least one situation where this was happening, and I earned a tech for chirping about it. Nevertheless, after the tech, the officials started getting the opponents' hands off. I hate having to "take one" just to get the game called by the rules, but I have to admit, getting that tech improved the game for my players.

Believe me when I say if I had called every single handcheck in that game, pretty much every girl would have fouled out. Would that have been good "management"? Then the coach would have been upset with me for "not letting them play."

Can't win for losing with you guys...

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Believe me when I say if I had called every single handcheck in that game, pretty much every girl would have fouled out.

...or they would have laid off the handchecks and played better "real" defense. Coaches and players adapt to the officiating either way. If you give players the opportunity to gain an illegal advantage and not got called, most of them (in particular the better ones) will take the advantage you give them.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Can't win for losing with you guys...

That may be.... You definitely can't when you start deciding which rules to enforce. I will say in my case, that I don't recall ever asking an official to "let them play" and overlook illegal contact. That's just in my case; I've heard others do it. Now I have heard coaches say, "if he (she) keeps that hand on your hip, run him (her) over to make sure they make a call - one way or the other." That's the risk you run managing it by letting it go.

Unfortunately, SO much of it is allowed in some games that we have to specifically run "bad defense" drills to teach ballhandlers to maintain composure with significant illegal contact. We tell the players on defense that this is specifically NOT how to play defense in the game, but to handcheck and armbar the ballhandler the length of the floor.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JoeT

That may be.... You definitely can't when you start deciding which rules to enforce.

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials. You think my job out there is to be a robot, and call everything the way you see it, as if I have some magic goggles that allow me to see things from a coach's perspective.

If I literally enforced every rule in the book to the T (no pun intended) as you suggest, you would not recognize the game as "basketball." It would be a free-throw shooting contest.

There is a concept called advantage/disadvantage that you should really learn about. We officials have to master this concept, or we don't last long because coaches like you complain that we never let their girls "play ball."

Like I said, can't win with you guys...

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials. You think my job out there is to be a robot, and call everything the way you see it, as if I have some magic goggles that allow me to see things from a coach's perspective.

If I literally enforced every rule in the book to the T (no pun intended) as you suggest, you would not recognize the game as "basketball." It would be a free-throw shooting contest.

There is a concept called advantage/disadvantage that you should really learn about. We officials have to master this concept, or we don't last long because coaches like you complain that we never let their girls "play ball."

Like I said, can't win with you guys...

Hard to believe that there was NO DISADVANTAGE for a girl who was overmatched and was being ridden like a horse for 20 feet!!!

There are many difficult (and bad coaches). In the case of the coach in this thread (Joe T), I think he has been reasonable in stating his case.

My question to you is "have you ever coached?" I think the one thing that has helped me as an official more than anything else over the years of officiating is my experience as a coach. I can appreciate all of the hard work that they put in preparing their team for a game. I respect that. I respect them.

Consequently, I have tended to get along with coaches from teams that are winning and teams that are losing. I don't take a lot of grief from them -- quite honestly, I usually don't hear a whole lot. Yet, they know when the respect is no longer mutual during a game, I have to take action with the proper penalTy.

One of my pet peeves is the huge divide that officals create with coaches AND coaches create with officials. We each have a VERY difficult job to do. If we work together, the outcomes are usually pleasant.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

My question to you is "have you ever coached?"

Yes, I have. Before I began reffing, I coached for three years in a intra-collegiate basketball league. It, basically, was a glorified intramural league, but with tryouts and a draft and a lot more structure than your usual intramural league.

And I'd have to say that I never viewed the officials the way I do now. I knew nothing about advantage/disadvantage, I was unaware of all the intricacies of officiating, the rules I thought I knew and actually didn't, etc etc.

In other words, I thought I knew a whole lot about officiating until I put on a shirt and whistle and stepped out onto the court. Then I found out I knew squat.

I respect coaches to a point. I don't think, for the most part (emphasis added), coaches at my level (JV and below) respect officials. They don't respect what our job actually is (as opposed to what they perceive it to be). They don't respect our calls. They don't respect us as human beings, from the way they treat us (yelling, rolling their eyes, stomping their feet, talking down, etc etc). Oh, they do during the coaches meeting, and they smile and shake hands, but once the ball is tipped they become totally different people.

95% or more of coaches, I would say, have never taken the time to not just dig into the rule book, but spend a summer reffing in their local rec league to see what it's like. So they don't know what it's like on the other side of the court. They don't know what it's like to work your ace off learning the rules and applying them on the court and doing your damndest to make sure you call a fair game and still be looked at and treated like you just killed someone's children because you dared to call a foul on someone. And they never will. And that's our job to deal with that fact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I respect coaches to a point. I don't think, for the most part (emphasis added), coaches at my level (JV and below) respect officials. They don't respect what our job actually is (as opposed to what they perceive it to be). They don't respect our calls. They don't respect us as human beings, from the way they treat us (yelling, rolling their eyes, stomping their feet, talking down, etc etc). Oh, they do during the coaches meeting, and they smile and shake hands, but once the ball is tipped they become totally different people.

Wow, this behavior would be stopped quickly here, I can tell you that.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wow, this behavior would be stopped quickly here, I can tell you that.

Well, I do my part, but I'm considered T-happy.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

One of my pet peeves is the huge divide that officals create with coaches AND coaches create with officials. We each have a VERY difficult job to do. If we work together, the outcomes are usually pleasant.

I'm going to go out on a very large limb here and say that, in my opinion, having done both, that officials have a much harder job, within the context of one basketball game, than do coaches.

Your job as a coach is to maximize the play of your team.

My job is to be judge, jury and executioner (in some cases). It is our job, as officials, to be God out on the court. We decide what is a foul and what is not.

Furthermore, coaches think it's their job to do whatever humanly possible in order to (I'm trying to think of the most respectful word here) influence the officials into calling a game that gives an advantage to their team. Whether conscious or subconscious, most coaches do this with what they talk to us about, when and how they scream at us, and their behavior in general.

The best coach, to me, is a coach who asks me questions calmly and respectfully, or doesn't talk to me at all. I make a habit of initiating as little communication as possible with coaches because I've found that it has a way of biting me in the behind. So, in that way, my job becomes harder.

Sad thing is, those coaches are very hard to find.

Boy, I'm really starting to sound like a hardened cynic, aren't I?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I'm going to go out on a very large limb here and say that, in my opinion, having done both, that officials have a much harder job, within the context of one basketball game, than do coaches.

Your job as a coach is to maximize the play of your team.

My job is to be judge, jury and executioner (in some cases). It is our job, as officials, to be God out on the court. We decide what is a foul and what is not.

Boy, I'm really starting to sound like a hardened cynic, aren't I?

First of all, keep in mind that I officiate tons of Club Soccer games/tournaments, OHSAA high school soccer games, youth basketball games/tournaments and OHSAA high school basketball games each year.

I also happen be the Director of Coaching for a soccer club and help coach a single basketball team. Point is, I am far more of a referee now than I am a coach.

That said, this attitude -- and the limb you are out on -- is part of the problem. This statement implies that you do not respect coaches to the level that you respect referees.

Top college coaches make millions of dollars each year. Top college officials make, well, let's just say somewhat less than that. Apparently, a fair number of people must think that coaching is at least a little challenging.

When I coached, I spent many hours each week watching tape preparing for our next opponent. I prepared a game plan. We developed that game plan during many hours of practice during the week. We would then make final preparations the hour before the game for the execution of that plan. We then attempted to execute that game plan during the game.

As a referee, you show up somewhere between 15 minutes and one hour before the game. You prepare for the game during that period of time. You conduct your pre-game, you stretch, and you get ready to officiate the game. You officiate the game and the game is done. You may discuss the game with your partners for a debrief after a game. It is quite rare that an official would watch a tape following a game (I have done it several times).

As a coach, after the game is over, I would almost always watch the tape at least once before going to bed. I was reviewing our performance against our game plan while beginning to prepare for our next game.

Many coaches follow this same routine all season. If part of their game plan is to attack one of the opponent's guards because they are constantly using their hands/arms to play defense (handchecking/arm barring), the coach EXPECTS the referees to do their part and properly make these calls. If the referees elect to only "call a few of them", they are shortchanging that team. If one team is shorter than the other team, the shorter teams better get good rebounding position and box out consistently. If the officials allow pushing on rebounds, electing only to "call a few of them, but not all of them", they are shortchanging that team.

I do not mean to imply that officiating is easy. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the work that WE as officials do each time we walk out onto the floor. At the same time, please respect the job that coaches do as well.

I just get frustrated when referees act like coaches are the enemy AND when coaches act like referees are the enemy. I have some very good friends who are coaches. Some think that referees are out to get them. This usually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have attempted to convince a few of them to get their referee license to gain a better appreciation for how difficult our job as officials really is. At the same time, I have a number of other good friends who are referees as well. Many of them have very good relationships with coaches in general. For the most part, these are the officials who get the high level tournament games each year -- regardless of the sport. There are others who insist that coaches are the enemy. The vast majority of these officials do not last very long. Those that do, end up being very frustrated throughout their careers.

Respect is a two way street between referees and coaches. The first step toward a successful career in EITHER profession is to respect the job that the other does day in and day out. BOTH professions require dedication, hard work and respect to be successful.

Still another $.02.....

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

As a referee, you show up somewhere between 15 minutes and one hour before the game. You prepare for the game during that period of time. You conduct your pre-game, you stretch, and you get ready to officiate the game. You officiate the game and the game is done. You may discuss the game with your partners for a debrief after a game. It is quite rare that an official would watch a tape following a game (I have done it several times).

....

Not necessarily true... We show up any where from 1.5 to 1 hour before the game. Many of us break down every game tape we get and review every call or questionable no-call. Many of the leagues I work put every game on a specific website that we are required by our supervisor to download and review. Many of us work games 3-6 nights per week and we talk about about plays in our pre-games, post games and with our colleagues while we spend countless hours on the road travelling to and from the games. This is all in addition to the thousands of dollars we spend each year and many weekends during the off season away from our families to get better and provide the participants the best product possible. You are severely underestimating the behind the scenes work that we as officials put in....

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

My job is to be judge, jury and executioner (in some cases). It is our job, as officials, to be God out on the court. We decide what is a foul and what is not.

I try to let a higher power perform the role of God. I just try to go out, work hard to create a fair atmosphere for both teams.

I am thinking the view you have just might be one of the reasons why coaches view you the way they do. I don't mean to be harsh, I really don't. But, my goal is to be as transparent as I can during the game -- only getting involved when it is required. If the game ends and no one notices my referee team, it is the ideal game from my perspective. Your appears to transform yourself into the Supreme Being during a game.

[fullor30]

"Top college coaches make millions of dollars each year. Top college officials make, well, let's just say somewhat less than that. Apparently, a fair number of people must think that coaching is at least a little challenging."

Not really. As evidenced by the recent Mack Brown 5,000,000 dollar contract, the mantra is follow the money. Texas football brings in over 80, 000,000 a year to the University. It's about the bucks.

That said, I understand your response to fiasco.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by fiasco

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials.

Oh please, I was an official for almost 10 years - check the "join date" on my post. You didn't describe it as incidental contact; you said it was a handcheck. The rule book (which some people only seem to like when it suits them to mis-quote it) says specifically that handchecks are not incidental contact, and it's been a repeated POE to ask officials to be more diligent about enforcing it.

If you look back at my earlier posts, I agreed that there is incidental contact that should not be called. By YOUR description, these were "handchecks" that were not called "because it was a JV game" and the girl "rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side."

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Oh please, I was an official for almost 10 years - check the "join date" on my post. You didn't describe it as incidental contact; you said it was a handcheck. The rule book (which some people only seem to like when it suits them to mis-quote it) says specifically that handchecks are not incidental contact, and it's been a repeated POE to ask officials to be more diligent about enforcing it.

If you look back at my earlier posts, I agreed that there is incidental contact that should not be called. By YOUR description, these were "handchecks" that were not called "because it was a JV game" and the girl "rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side."

Ok, Coach. I've heard you.