End of game situation

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

[rfp]

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rfp

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

The phrase in the rule is "definite knowledge relative to the time involved."
Without knowing an exact amount, there is no definite knowledge.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Also, if the clock does not show tenths, and you know the display had 0 while the horn had not sounded, then you cannot put 1 second back on because you would be putting back more time than what is allowed.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Either way, in the case of a clock that does not show tenths, how can you justify putting 1.0 seconds on the clock when there could actually be .5 left? How is that "fair" to the other team, letting the one team have twice the amount of correct time left, just to put "something" back up?

If the clock doesn't do 10ths of a second, 1 second resolution is the best you've got. So it's 1 second, or 0 seconds. Take your pick. Welcome back to the 1980's.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now can you honestly tell me you know the difference between .9 seconds and .6, for example?

Can you honestly tell me your arm swing is exactly 5 seconds and not 4.8 or 5.5 seconds? How close to three seconds is your mental "one-thousand-one"? The rules allow for some pretty inaccurate "definite information," giving tacit acknowledgement that "the best we can do" is the best that we've got.

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game.

We haven't even addressed the situation where the V team requests the time out and the home scorer lets the clock run out. This doesn't always happen innocently.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're putting yourself into a position of having to either lie to the coach or tell him you're guessing....Which are you going with?

I'm going to get both coaches together very briefly, and I am going to tell them what we're going to do. We're not going to discuss how we came to our decision about how much time to put back on the clock.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you guess 1 second, and the replay later shows .8 seconds when you blew your whistle, you're screwed.

I am equally screwed if the replay shows there is .8 seconds and my crew ended the game because we didn't know how much time to put on the clock. Sure, we'd be right by rule. But we're still screwed.

Originally Posted by bbcof83

You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

Amen, Brother! (Or is it Sister?)

Originally Posted by rfp

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

I submit that all of that information contributes to "definite knowledge". You know there was a discernible gap between the whistle and the horn. You know that the time on the clock when the whistle was blown was the amount of time it takes to blow then look. You know the timer reacted immediately, but was unable to stop the clock in time. Put all that together, and you should be able to come to an estimate that is accurate to 1 or 2 10ths, and a heck of a lot more accurate than are allowed when timing something with an arm swing.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The phrase in the rule is "definite knowledge relative to the time involved."
Without knowing an exact amount, there is no definite knowledge.

Funny how inexact "definite knowledge" can be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rfp

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

If it's so quick that the official looks up immediately and sees zeros, there's nothing that can be done. Up until about 2 years ago, the lag time rule would have ended the game even if the official saw .9 second on the clock anyway.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rfp

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle.
...
The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

In some cases, yes...but not in this case.

In this case, the amount of time is not limited to what an official sees on the board. Any type of counting the official does on the court is a valid source of definite knowledge.

The cases were you don't need an exact time are those when you have a clock not starting and have a sequence of counts that are not continuous. Example: Throwin...backcourt count for 8 seconds....ball in front court from some time (not closely guarded)...then ball is closely guarded for 3 seconds when the official recognizes that the clock didn't start....you take 11 seconds off. It is definite knowledge since those counts were known. The remainder of the time can not be adjusted unless there is some other form of definite information.