Jump ball or out of bounds?

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. .

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

Agree the word "prevents" does

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Agree the word "prevents" does

yep. two separate articles make for two separate scenarios.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Do you also count the goal when an airborne player in the act of shooting is fouled causing him to lose control of the ball, but he is able to regain it while still in the air and shoot and score? In order to be consistent you would have to count that second attempt as "the same play."

I don't see what one play has to do with the other. In my scenario, which actually happened to me in a pick-up game, I elevated and attempted to shoot, the first defender got his hand on top of the ball as I was elevating. As I was coming back down I was able to pull the ball back and release it. The 2nd defender blocked my shot. There is no way in heck that if this play occurred in a regulation game that I would blow my whistle and rule a held ball.

I see a lot of athletic plays where I live and officiate. I have seen players get their shot "capped" and still get their shot away from all kinds of crazy angles AND make the basket. The case play you referenced earlier in the thread did not address plays in which an airborne shooter is actually able get his shot off after initially getting it "capped".

BTW, in your quoted play above my instincts would be to count the basket. Now, if there is a rule/case/interp from NCAA and/or NFHS that says my instinct is wrong then I will adjust accordingly.

Oh yeah, I forgot: In honor of our more kinder, gentler forum.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

yep. two separate articles make for two separate scenarios.

Regardless. The premesis of "just an other ref" is not correct since if an offensive player was standing on the ground about to shoot and a defender puts a hand on the ball, not held ball according to 4.25.

Perhaps I mis read the post of " just another ref". Will go revisit

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Regardless. The premesis of "just an other ref" is not correct since if an offensive player was standing on the ground about to shoot and a defender puts a hand on the ball, not held ball according to 4.25.

Perhaps I mis read the post of " just another ref". Will go revisit

Nope, you got it right.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nope, you got it right.

I just added 2 + 2 and now fully understand your previous statement

"yep. two separate articles make for two separate scenarios."
Opps

[Nevadaref]

BNR,
Don't forget that I used to live and officiate in the DC area as well.

I still think that you are failing to properly reward the athleticism of the defender for getting his hand on the ball without fouling and preventing the offensive player from releasing the ball when he desired. He has met the requirement of the rule for a held ball at that point. Anything else that happens afterwards doesn't matter. The ball is dead at that moment and you should sound the whistle immediately as it says in the NFHS case book.

If you don't do this, then you are presenting the offensive player with an extra advantage to which he is not entitled by rule. You are tipping the carefully crafted balance between offense and defense that has been established by the rules writers. That negatively impacts the game.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

[just another ref]

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

A mid-air pump fake does not habitually precede the release of the ball. Therefore the pull back and subsequent release is another try. When the first try was not released, it became certain that it was unsuccessful. The defender prevented the release.

Held Ball

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

Please read my full post.

If a player is on the GROUND and is about to try and the opponet places a hand on the ball preventing the try, this is NOT a held ball,

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

Oh really? Might want to rethink that one. Collectively, each having either one or two hands on the ball satisfies the clause "opponents have their hands so firmly". If two players have a hold of the ball such that it would take excessive force to free it...it is a jump ball. Forget about how many hands are on the ball....two hands (one from each) is adequate. It just happens that one hand on the ball is rarely enough for a player to retain their hold on the ball but it can be done.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Oh really? Might want to rethink that one. Collectively, each having either one or two hands on the ball satisfies the clause "opponents have their hands so firmly". If two players have a hold of the ball such that it would take excessive force to free it...it is a jump ball. Forget about how many hands are on the ball....two hands (one from each) is adequate. It just happens that one hand on the ball is rarely enough for a player to retain their hold on the ball but it can be done.

Good point. I'll think about it will get back, the clause that is holding me back from answering totally is the "undue roughness" . In the situation I described, all the shooter needs to do is lower their arm ... hence no undue roughness,

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

A mid-air pump fake does not habitually precede the release of the ball. Therefore the pull back and subsequent release is another try. When the first try was not released, it became certain that it was unsuccessful. The defender prevented the release.

Held Ball

I disagree. The defender must prevent the airborne player from releasing the ball on a try/pass...not just delay the release. Until the airborne player lands, the defender has not yet prevented that player form releasing the ball on a try/pass. If the defense had truly made a play that was deserving of reward, they would have knocked or grabbed the ball out of the shooter's hands. Short of that the defense deserves nothing if the offense can still complete the shot before landing.