T after game ended

[Nevadaref]

I'm all for sporting behavior, congratulating the victors and winning and losing with class. Generally, in our society that means a handshake. If one can't do that simple gesture then he/she doesn't belong in HS athletics, and should go play in the NBA.

Of course, safety and common sense have to prevail over tradition and formalities. If the situation isn't conducive to pleasant interaction, then get the heck out of there.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Plus and minus.

The official was 100% correct that a technical foul could be charged following the final horn for poor behavior. However, if one is going to go that route and rely upon the rules for justification, then one had darn well better conduct the entire procedure strictly by the book. That means that he screwed up by permitting the 2nd FT to be administered. Had the coach argued about that, he would have been correct. Now what does one do? -- T the coach again when he is right and the official has absolutely no rules support for what he just did?

Good call, poor execution.

I'm with the "second FT unecessary / can't change outcome so don't shoot it" line of thought. But does that mean if the coach T'ed up is winning by three at the horn, then there are no FTs shot at all (or until he gets two 'post-game' T's)?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Amesman

I'm with the "second FT unecessary / can't change outcome so don't shoot it" line of thought. But does that mean if the coach T'ed up is winning by three at the horn, then there are no FTs shot at all (or until he gets two 'post-game' T's)?

Yep, that's exactly what the rule states.

There's even a case book play which spells that out.

[Nevadaref]

5.6 COMMENT B: If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to
end a quarter, the next quarter is started by administering the free throws. This
applies even when the foul occurs after the first half has ended. It also applies
when the foul occurs after the second half has ended, provided the score is tied.
If the score is not tied, the free throws are administered unless the outcome of
the game will not be affected. If the outcome is not already decided, the free
throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been a part of the fourth
quarter. In this case, if any overtime period is necessary, it will start with a jump
ball. The division line throw-in following the technical foul cannot be carried over
to the overtime as the fourth quarter ended with the last free throw. (5-6-4)

5.6.2 SITUATION H: Team A is leading 61-60. B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting
as time expires. As the officials approach the scorer's table, the Team A coach
rushes the floor and begins screaming obscenities at the officials. RULING: A flagrant
technical foul is assessed to the Team A coach. The foul at the expiration of
time is no longer ignored. The flagrant technical foul on the Team A coach created
a false double foul situation, which may affect the outcome of the game. The
penalties are administered in the order in which they occurred. With the lane
cleared, A1 shoots two free throws for being fouled in the act of shooting. If both
are successful, the game is over. If one or both are missed, an eligible player from
Team B shoots the two technical foul free throws. The free throws will determine
the outcome of the game or an extra period will be played. COMMENT:
Jurisdiction of the officials is terminated when all officials leave the visual confines
of the playing area. While the preferred action would be for all officials to
immediately leave the playing area, such an observable action by the coach should
be penalized as unsporting or flagrant. (10-4-1c; 4-19-9; 5-6-2 Exception 3)
5.6.2 SITUATION E: A1 has been awarded two free throws after time has
expired in the fourth quarter. Team B leads 62-60 and A1 misses the first free
throw. RULING: The second free throw will not be attempted. (5-6-2 Exception 3)
5.6.2 SITUATION F: Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading
62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity
at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.
RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the
results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary.
The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within
the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in
the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time
expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of
Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1’s attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither
throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free
throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free
throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul
occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the
technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful
free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is
successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate
there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not
administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra
period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the
game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-
6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Amesman

I'm with the "second FT unecessary / can't change outcome so don't shoot it" line of thought. But does that mean if the coach T'ed up is winning by three at the horn, then there are no FTs shot at all (or until he gets two 'post-game' T's)?

Yes, and in the OP, the 2nd should not have been shot unless and until a 2nd T was called against the coach. At that time, you would shoot the 2nd shot from the first T, then the 2 from the 2nd T (if necessary).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Amesman

I'm with the "second FT unecessary / can't change outcome so don't shoot it" line of thought. But does that mean if the coach T'ed up is winning by three at the horn, then there are no FTs shot at all (or until he gets two 'post-game' T's)?

I don't think it's a stretch to say that many coaches are unaware of this rule.

This would be an interesting scene:

A wins by 3.

Coach A: "We won in spite of you two lousy low-life &*^$^&$'s."

Official: tweet "Technical foul, Coach A."

Scorer: "Do we shoot free throws for that, Mr. Ref?"

Official: "No"

Coach A: "See, he doesn't know what he's doing. %(*&^% idiot!"

Official: tweet "Now we shoot."

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Plus and minus.

The official was 100% correct that a technical foul could be charged following the final horn for poor behavior. However, if one is going to go that route and rely upon the rules for justification, then one had darn well better conduct the entire procedure strictly by the book. That means that he screwed up by permitting the 2nd FT to be administered. Had the coach argued about that, he would have been correct. Now what does one do? -- T the coach again when he is right and the official has absolutely no rules support for what he just did?

Good call, poor execution.

Yes, T him again even if the coach is right. I've been T'ed for arguing with officials who did things with no rules support. Just to mention a couple I've been T'ed for arguing:

1. Ref calls the ball out of bounds when it hits the side of backboard.
2. Ref calls the ball out of bounds when it hits the top (not the support).
3. Ref gives the ball underneath when intentional foul called at half-court.
4. Ref gives the ball at half court when intentional foul called underneath basket (more common). They administer as if it was a T.
5. Ref says team control foul (no free throws) on a push on a rebound. He insists team maintains team control while shot is in air.


Also - in our game I thought the refs did a fantastic job. They knew the rules and had the other coach baffled because of a couple situations:

1. Called over-and-back when we tipped a pass, but his team touched it last in the front court and then touched it first in the back court. Coach is arguing "they tipped it!", but the ref got it right. Coaches rarely know this rule.
2. Called over-and-back on a sideline inbounds pass where the kid landed on one foot in the front court and then his second foot came down in the back court. He didn't catch it in the air and land in the backcourt.

The other coach thought he was getting screwed but didn't earn his T until after the game. I thought he deserved one during the game. I've been given T's for less, but that's OK. It was a well-officiated game and we still lost!

[Adam]

Coach, on 2, did the player catch it in the air, then land normally? If so, the FC foot can land first without violation. If, however,
a) he caught in the air, landed on the one foot in the FC, then held the other foot in the air for a short time..... or
b) he caught it after landing, with one foot down in the FC, then put the other down in the BC

those would be violations.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Coach, on 2, did the player catch it in the air, then land normally? If so, the FC foot can land first without violation. If, however,
a) he caught in the air, landed on the one foot in the FC, then held the other foot in the air for a short time..... or
b) he caught it after landing, with one foot down in the FC, then put the other down in the BC

those would be violations.

b. is what he told the other coach and I thought the ref was correct. The other coach still thought that was OK since it was an inbounds pass.

[Adam]

Gotcha. Thanks, and he did get it right.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

...Just to mention a couple I've been T'ed for arguing:

1. Ref calls the ball out of bounds when it hits the side of backboard.
2. Ref calls the ball out of bounds when it hits the top (not the support).
3. Ref gives the ball underneath when intentional foul called at half-court.
4. Ref gives the ball at half court when intentional foul called underneath basket (more common). They administer as if it was a T.
5. Ref says team control foul (no free throws) on a push on a rebound. He insists team maintains team control while shot is in air.

Maybe you should try a new approach to your argument when you know you're right. It takes A LOT for the average official to T up a coach if there's even a slight chance the coach may be right. JMO

Then again, 1-5 are all mistakes that are made mostly at the lower levels so perhaps you're just dealing with inexperienced officials.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Maybe you should try a new approach to your argument when you know you're right. It takes A LOT for the average official to T up a coach if there's even a slight chance the coach may be right. JMO

Then again, 1-5 are all mistakes that are made mostly at the lower levels so perhaps you're just dealing with inexperienced officials.

It's AAU where I see these errors made, so I'm sure you're right. And, yes I do need to work on a new approach. One approach I abandoned before even trying it, was bringing out the rulebook. I'm open to suggestions.

[Adam]

Sadly, that might actually work at that level with officials who don't know any better.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

It's AAU where I see these errors made, so I'm sure you're right. And, yes I do need to work on a new approach. One approach I abandoned before even trying it, was bringing out the rulebook. I'm open to suggestions.

You're rarely going to succeed in convincing an official, at least at the time of the infraction/during the run of play, that you are right and they should change their call. You can voice your disagreement and calmly tell them why but any type of carrying on or demonstrative action puts you at risk of getting the business.

The rulebook thing may not be a terrible idea to try at half time or after the game IF you had a good rapport with crew during the game. Make sure to do it discretely and respectfully (no "I told you so"s) and I believe most officials would be open to hearing what you have to say.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I'm open to suggestions.

First of all, I appreciate coaches like yourself who know their rules!!
Beats the heck out of the freshman coach I had last night who says his player was fouled because he was contacted on his hand during the shot
Wish I would've handled that in a better way, but that's another story.

I wouldn't bring out a rulebook during halftime or right after the game. Instead I'd try this approach:

"This is your ballgame to manage, with all due respect, I think your ruling is incorrect. If we can discuss it later I'm willing to put a steak dinner of MY choice on the line."